Join In On The Action "Register Here" To View The Forums

Already a Member Login Here

Board index Forum Index
User avatar
Administrator
 
Posts: 7158
Joined: 26 Jun 2000, 1:13 pm

Post 08 Aug 2021, 4:25 pm

Considering the latest from Antifa in Portland, does anyone have a supporting stance of them?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9874591/Antifa-Proud-Boys-clash-downtown-Portland-prayer-event.html

Regardless of what you think of the Christian group there, don't they have a right to the park? Assault from Antifa should be prosecuted, no?
User avatar
Adjutant
 
Posts: 3494
Joined: 17 May 2013, 3:32 pm

Post 08 Aug 2021, 6:31 pm

What about the Proud Boys that were there and clashed with antifa? Why is a Christian pastor getting involved in politics calling police who enforce mask mandates "nazis? What was that Christian pastor hoping to accomplish by having that event? Why were the Proud Boys there?

The Right is always complaining about antifa...who arent even an actual group..but.the Proud Boys were heavy involved in the attempted coup on January 6...so we know they are plenty capable of violence. And antifa has not been involved in any attempted coups last time I checked...

I am for peaceful protests and freedom of religion. But...a Christian pastor spouting all this stuff decides to go to Portland and hold an event? And the Proud Boys just happen to show up? He was looking for trouble.
User avatar
Administrator
 
Posts: 7158
Joined: 26 Jun 2000, 1:13 pm

Post 09 Aug 2021, 5:08 am

I do not support the Proud Boys at all.

Do you support Antifa? Perhaps you think they are not a group at all?
User avatar
Adjutant
 
Posts: 3494
Joined: 17 May 2013, 3:32 pm

Post 09 Aug 2021, 8:56 am

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.thegua ... error-2020

FBI Director Wray:

“I would certainly say, as I think I’ve said consistently in the past, that racially motivated violent extremism, specifically of the sort that advocates for the superiority of the white race, is a persistent, evolving threat,” he said. “It’s the biggest chunk of our racially motivated violent extremism cases for sure. And racially motivated violent extremism is the biggest chunk of our domestic terrorism portfolio, if you will, overall.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washin ... utType=amp


Another assessment:

"Based on a CSIS data set of 893 terrorist incidents in the United States between January 1994 and May 2020, attacks from left-wing perpetrators like Antifa made up a tiny percentage of overall terrorist attacks and casualties. Right-wing terrorists perpetrated the majority—57 percent—of all attacks and plots during this period, particularly those who were white supremacists, anti-government extremists, and involuntary celibates (or incels). In comparison, left-wing extremists orchestrated 25 percent of the incidents during this period, followed by 15 percent from religious terrorists, 3 percent from ethno-nationalists, and 0.7 percent from terrorists with other motives. In analyzing fatalities from terrorist attacks, religious terrorism has killed the largest number of individuals—3,086 people—primarily due to the attacks on September 11, 2001, which caused 2,977 deaths. In comparison, right-wing terrorist attacks caused 335 fatalities, left-wing attacks caused 22 deaths, and ethno-nationalist terrorists caused 5 deaths.

Viewed in this context, the threat from Antifa-associated actors in the United States is relatively small."

335 deaths from right-wing extremists...22 from the left-wing. That's about a 15 to 1 ratio.

https://www.csis.org/analysis/who-are-a ... hey-threat



Right-wing extremist have posed a far greater threat than left-wing extremists. I certainly do not support unprovoked violence by people who purport to be antifa but, again, the threat posed by right-wing supremacists is much, much greater. Antifa has not threatened our system of government (Jan 6 attempted coup, the plot to kidnap michigan's governor and prior than that the attempt to intimidate the governor by bringing guns to their state capitol building, etc.), and other plots. I also think that it's not a bad thing for liberals to say to right-wing extremists that you know you dont have a free hand to use violence or threats of violence to intimidate those on the left. They do need to act lawfully of course. I mean, Kyle Rittenhouse is a hero on the Right for shooting BLM protesters. That couple who pulled guns on BLM protesters for no apparent reason received pardons from a Republican governor. But every time antifa does something it's this huge deal. The concern about antifa is just completely out of proportion based on what theyve done.
User avatar
Ambassador
 
Posts: 4946
Joined: 08 Jun 2000, 10:26 am

Post 10 Aug 2021, 5:25 am

I am going to say what Freeman didn't say. Antifa is also a problem; 25% of terrorist incidents from left wing terrorists is unacceptable and 22 deaths from left wing extremists is also reprehensible. Yes, the right wing has been worse, but both sets of extremists are a problem.
User avatar
Adjutant
 
Posts: 3494
Joined: 17 May 2013, 3:32 pm

Post 10 Aug 2021, 9:45 am

Well, I was going to say that I dont believe in attacks on police officers--to the extent that any of that can be attributed to the left--and I looked it up and more police died at the hands of right-wing extremists in the last ten years (14 vs 11) than at the hands of left-wing extremists...

The 22 deaths occurred over almost 25 years and Im not sure how many, if any, were attributable to antifa. But in any case there is no doubt that antifa goes over the line when it seeks to intimidate free speech from the right (including the event in Portland but again I thought that was a grandstanding pastor going into a liberal area--there is no need to be needledly antagnostic.)

But even the 335 deaths from right-extremism is a pittance compared to the carnage from guns over the past 25 years. And of course it's the right-wing that is preventing us doing anything about that. It's also unacceptable that 1,000 people are killed by police each year. Our housing problem is unacceptable. Our health care is unacceptable in not guaranteeing care for everyone like other rich, advanced countries do. It's unacceptable that we arent taking major steps to finally repair the damage to black communities from many years of segregation and discrimination. Anti-semitism, attacks on Asians, and xenophobia are unacceptable. The minimum wage still being at $7.25 is unacceptable. A ridiculous amount of the country's wealth going to a few people while most people's wages stay flat and having to deal with increased expenses is unacceptable (it's funny they say inflation has been low over the past 20-30 years...but whenever I compare expenses like rent, gas, eating out, dry cleaning now to back then--they all have outpaced inflation.) It's also uncceptable that many workers dont get get decent vacations or paid sick leave. A younger generation getting saddled with large student loans while struggling to find decent jobs is unacceptable. What exactly are we trying to accomplish as a society with a 20 trillion GDP? Have most people barely get by, with little to no vacation time to enjoy themselves, a few months unemployment or serious illness away from economic ruin? Rent so high in some cities that some workers are homeless? Who would design such such a crazy system?

We got problems that need to be fixed. There is a lot of anger out there--left and right. And in my opinion a significant part of that originates from an economic system that is putting a majority of the country under economic stress in order for a few to live like kings (or build rockets).
User avatar
Ambassador
 
Posts: 4946
Joined: 08 Jun 2000, 10:26 am

Post 12 Aug 2021, 3:52 am

I think you have to be careful continuously using the word "unacceptable" in the context of a discussion on extremism and violence. If something is unacceptable, you imply that it cannot remain no matter what. But in a Democracy we accept the results of our elections, laws, and court decisions, as bad as they may be. We accept the results of the democratic process. We can continue our political activism (whatever it may be) after that to try and change it.
User avatar
Administrator
 
Posts: 7158
Joined: 26 Jun 2000, 1:13 pm

Post 12 Aug 2021, 5:49 am

As long as the political "activism" is within the democratic process and not outsides the tenets of the law and done with basic decorum, I am in agreement.

Lately, the rule of law is superseded because of what some consider "unacceptable".
User avatar
Adjutant
 
Posts: 3494
Joined: 17 May 2013, 3:32 pm

Post 12 Aug 2021, 8:41 am

Well, it's only been the right-wing that has been refusing to accept democratic processes, engaging in a coup attempt, and obstructing voting. But if you want to tamp down extremism powerful interests cannot keep going down the path theyve been going with regard to the concentration of wealth. It's not as if Trumpism came out of nowhere and endangered our democracy (and still does).

Fortunately, Biden--as Democratic presidents are wont to do--will likely calm things down with policies that help a lot more people. It wont be satisfactory to most liberals but we're the ones that have stayed within the democratic system and will continue to do so (my use of "unacceptable" does not imply any differently) The threat to our democracy is from the right-wing and the fear of a lot of white people that they will lose power. The demographics are against them and so they are becoming increasing undemocratic. How to stop that slide into "fascism" is something we should be thinking on how to prevent. Because right now it shows no signs of stopping, with or without Trump...
User avatar
Administrator
 
Posts: 7158
Joined: 26 Jun 2000, 1:13 pm

Post 12 Aug 2021, 9:54 am

Only? Wow.

I expect such hyperbole from certain others...
User avatar
Adjutant
 
Posts: 3494
Joined: 17 May 2013, 3:32 pm

Post 12 Aug 2021, 11:27 am

The left in the late 60s got out of control I think. But now...BLM protests? Thats democratic. Antifa is frankly pretty minor. Nothing compared to January 6 and the attempts to restrict voting. Those are undermining democracy, pure and simple. But maybe you have concrete examples of how the left is undermining democracy.