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Statesman
 
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Post 26 Jun 2020, 7:15 am

RickyP: Does the phrase "All Black Lives Matter" meet your approval?


I don't understand what the "ALL" does.....
Are you suggesting that there is some subsection of blacks that faces more discrimination than another?
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Post 26 Jun 2020, 11:43 am

RickyP, I am being clear.

Do you think the Phrase "All Black Lives Matter"? That would include all people who are Black. Not just the ones who were killed by a white police officer.
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Post 26 Jun 2020, 1:01 pm

The reason I ask is because you have said nothing about the death toll in Chicago since George Floyd died.

246 this year!
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/breaking/ct-chicago-homicides-data-tracker-htmlstory.html
18 in one day!
https://chicago.suntimes.com/crime/2020/6/8/21281998/chicago-deadliest-day-violence-murder-history-police-crime

You speak only of the death from police actions. Your lack of comment on the murders of Blacks in Chicago, let alone other cities is deafening. You only want the division apparently.

https://chicago.suntimes.com/crime/2020/6/8/21281998/chicago-deadliest-day-violence-murder-history-police-crime

Yes, you will say it is all because we have guns... Well, the statistics of Black homicide is higher than all the others.
https://www.healthypeople.gov/2020/leading-health-indicators/2020-lhi-topics/Injury-and-Violence/data#homicides
Among racial and ethnic groups, the Asian or Pacific Islander population had the lowest age-adjusted rate of deaths from homicide, 1.7 per 100,000 population in 2017. Rates for other racial and ethnic groups were:

22.7 homicides per 100,000 population among non-Hispanic black persons (highest rate); more than 13.5 times best group rate
6.3 homicides per 100,000 population among American Indian or Alaska Native persons; more than 3.5 times the best group rate
5.2 homicides per 100,000 population among Hispanic or Latino persons; more than 3 times the best group rate
2.9 homicides per 100,000 population among non-Hispanic white persons; 76.3% higher than the best group rate


That will take the gun argument out because ALL rates have not gone up due to guns. ONLY BLACK HOMICIDE HAS GONE UP! FACE FACTS!
To ignore that fact is to ignore that "All Black Lives Matter". You seem to focus on Floyd's death. His killer should be tried, convicted, punished/executed as per the law. I hope we can agree on that.

Your ignorance of the fact that Blacks are killing Black at astronomical numbers is willful and blissful thickness.

I do not wish to be conflictive (is that a word?), but you seem to thrive on race baiting and division rather than agreement that Chauvin should be imprisoned forever or executed.

Personally, as I have said "All Lives Matter", but the fact that you cannot even say that "All Black Lives Matter", shows that you are only concerned with the life/death of a man who can promote your agenda, not promote a better society.
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Post 26 Jun 2020, 6:12 pm

Two things you might consider, Brad: (1) Isnt state-sanctioned violence against black people different in kind than black-on-black violence and sends a signal to black people that is categorically different than black-on-black violence?, (2) what about the fact that the conditions that many blacks live in are a legacy of discrimination and segregation with a lack of educational and work opportunities and those kinds of conditions are major contributing factors to the violence?

Get rid of state-sanctioned violence against blacks...make a major effort to end segregation and discrimination, equalize work and educational opportunities, do something to ensure ALL workers (including blacks) have a liveable wage, affordable health care, vacation, retirement benefits and put blacks on an equal footing...then maybe we have the moral authority to blame blacks for violence in places like Chicago and equate it with police brutality. But right now blacks dying in Chicago with blacks dying from police brutality...are not comparable things IMHO.
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Post 28 Jun 2020, 7:47 am

Freeman is right. Black Lives Matter isn't narrowly about deaths of Blacks when encountering police.

Its also about unequal treatment in the judicial system. The war on drugs took more black prisoners than white prisoners. Incarceration was sought by the State in far more cases per capita involving blacks than whites.... And sentences were far tougher for blacks than whites for the same crimes... (:A prison system which, having been privatized in many places, means corporations profit from locking people up for long periods...)

https://apps.urban.org/features/long-pr ... phics.html

And Black Lives Matter isn't just about the judicial system, but includes social justice.
In 1866 a white person landing as an immigrant had their savings and were given free land to settle in parts of the US. A freed slave had nothing and was given nothing. And faced discrimination that placed enormous obstacles in their path as they tried to better themselves. Obstacles whites never faced.
This discrimination was institutionalized until the 1960s and is still ingrained into the system.

Does adding ALL to Black Lives Matter improve the understanding of this reality?
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Post 29 Jun 2020, 9:47 am

This is my point, and thank you for making it.

Slavery = Bad
Unequal treatment = Bad

If it has been SOOO Bad for SOOO Long, why has there not been BLM Protests unless a White officer kills a Black suspect?

That folks, is why I think it does not matter to BLM that a 3 year old black child is killed by another black. This last weekend, a 20 mo. old child dies and nothing from BLM.

BLM is a farce because they do not care about Black lives, they care about Black lives that have been killed by White police officers.
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Post 29 Jun 2020, 9:51 am

BTW, 20 homicide in Chicago this weekend.

I think they matter...
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Post 29 Jun 2020, 12:09 pm

https://komonews.com/news/local/2-critically-wounded-in-shooting-near-chop-area

Yay for the defund the police group! Looks like things are working well with the security farce they have in place.
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Post 29 Jun 2020, 12:23 pm

What exactly are you asking them to do, Brad? Part of the demands for reducing money given to police is to reallocate it to programs that would reduce poverty, provide educational and work opportunities, and discourage joining gangs that hopefully would reduce violence in places like Chicago. Do you really think that BLM protesters do not care about blacks getting killed in Chicago?

And WHAT are you going to do about blacks getting killed in Chicago since you indicated that they matter as much as blacks getting killed by police. What proposals do you have to stop that violence? And of course those lives matter as much. I wouldnt advise telling a black person that they dont really care about black-on-black violence in Chicago...

But when the police acting as agents of the state dont value black lives as much that is a signal to blacks and others about the place of blacks in society. All those statues of Confederate war heroes also had a purpose to indicate blacks had an inferior status.

The reason that BLM demonstrate against police brutality is that you will never solve violence in places like Chicago until the STATE values black lives equally. Black leaders do try to lessen violence in their communities; it's not like they don't care about the issue. But getting de facto not just de jure equality is a necessary step in trying to solve the problems created in black communities by a legacy of slavery, segregation and discrimination.
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Post 29 Jun 2020, 12:40 pm

I am fine with statues being removed and bases being renamed. I do not support a nation in conflict with the United States being supported. These generals were not American. But that is not the issue. (nice attempt at the sidestep, btw)

The issue is the timing of the protests. The protests start when a white officer kills a black man, not when blacks have been killing blacks.

As for what I would do? I think you know the answer to that. I would treat them equally as every other citizen by giving them just the basics of what the Constitution says citizens should get. I am all for a community response, not a state-one. The state response should only come if a person is attempting remove the rights of another, and that person removing the rights of someone else should be tried and convicted if guilty whether that is Chauvin or a protester shooting a 77 year old retired police chief.

I know we do not agree about the equality issue, as you want to give more to one group over another, and I do not.

These riots have gotten out of hand, and the killings in the inner cities across America were out of hand a long time ago.

How is the lack of police presence in Seattle working? That is exactly what defunding the police will provide.
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Post 29 Jun 2020, 1:05 pm

bbauska
The issue is the timing of the protests. The protests start when a white officer kills a black man, not when blacks have been killing blacks.

Violent protests have been a frequent occurrence in US history...
I can't find a record of the protests that remained peaceful but I know from my reading on the Freedom riders and MLK that they far out numbered the violent protests...
Revolts of the Enslaved:
New York City Slave Uprising, 1712
The Stono Rebellion, 1739
New York City Slave Conspiracy, 1741
Gabriel Prosser Revolt, 1800
Igbo Landing Mass Suicide, 1803
Andry’s Rebellion, 1811
Denmark Vesey Conspiracy, 1822
Nat Turner Revolt, 1831
Amistad Mutiny, 1839
Creole Case, 1841
Slave Revolt in the Cherokee Nation, 1842

Antebellum Urban Violence
Cincinnati Riots, 1829
Anti-Abolition Riots, 1834
Cincinnati Race Riots, 1836
The Pennsylvania Hall Fire, 1838
Christina (Pennsylvania) Riot, 1851

Civil War, Reconstruction, and Post-Reconstruction Era Violence
Detroit Race Riot, 1863
New York City Draft Riots, 1863
Memphis Riot, 1866
New Orleans Massacre, 1866
Pulaski Race Riot, 1868
Camilla Massacre, 1868
Opelousas Massacre, 1868
The Meridian Race Riot, 1871
Chicot County Race War, 1871
The Colfax Massacre, 1873
Clinton (Mississippi) Riot, 1875
Hamburg Massacre, 1876
Carroll County Courthouse Massacre, 1886
Thibodaux Massacre, 1887
New Orleans Dockworkers’ Riot, 1894-1895
Virden, Illinois Race Riot, 1898
Wilmington Race Riot, 1898
Newburg, New York Race Riot, 1899

Race Riots, 1900-1960
Robert Charles Riot (New Orleans), 1900
New York City Race Riot, 1900
Atlanta Race Riot, 1906
Springfield, Illinois Race Riot, 1908
East St. Louis Race Riot, 1917
Chester, Pennsylvania Race Riot, 1917
Houston Mutiny and Race Riot, 1917
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Race Riot, 1918
Charleston (South Carolina) Riot, 1919
Washington, D.C. Riot, 1919
Chicago Race Riot, 1919
Knoxville Race Riot, 1919
Elaine, Arkansas Riot, 1919
Tulsa Race Riot, 1921
Rosewood Massacre, 1923
Harlem Race Riot, 1935
Beaumont Race Riot, 1943
Detroit Race Riot, 1943
Columbia Race Riot, 1946

Urban Uprisings, 1960-2000
Cambridge, Maryland Riot, 1963
The Harlem Race Riot, 1964
Rochester Rebellion, 1964
Jersey City Uprising, 1964
Paterson, New Jersey Uprising, 1964
Elizabeth, New Jersey Uprising, 1964
Chicago (Dixmoor) Riots, 1964
Philadelphia Race Riot, 1964
Watts Rebellion (Los Angeles), 1965
Cleveland’s Hough Riots, 1966
Chicago, Illinois Uprising, 1966
The Dayton, Ohio Uprising, 1966
Hunter’s Point, San Francisco Uprising, 1966
The Nashville Race Riot, 1967
Newark Race Riot, 1967
Plainfield, New Jersey Riot, 1967
Detroit Race Riot, 1967
Flint, Michigan Riot, 1967
Tuscon Race Riot, 1967
Grand Rapids, Michigan Uprising, 1967
The King Assassination Riots, 1968
Hartford, Connecticut Riot, 1969
Asbury Park Race Riot, 1970
Camden, New Jersey Riots, 1969 and 1971
Miami (Liberty City) Riot, 1980
Crown Heights (Brooklyn) New York Riot, 1991
Rodney King Riot, 1992
West Las Vegas Riot, 1992
St. Petersburg, Florida Riot, 1996

College Campus Violence
University of Georgia Desegregation Riot, 1961
Ole Miss Riot, 1962
Houston (Texas Southern University) Riot, 1967
Orangeburg Massacre, 1968
Jackson State Killings, 1970

21st Century Racial Violence
Cincinnati Riot, 2001
Oscar Grant Oakland Protests, 2009-2011
Ferguson Riot and Ferguson Unrest, 2014-2015
Baltimore Protests and Riots, 2015
Charleston Church Massacre, 2015
Milwaukee Riot, 2016
Charlotte Riot, 2016
Jackson State Killings, 1970
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Post 29 Jun 2020, 1:11 pm

Bbauska,

The state response should only come if a person is attempting remove the rights of another,


And what do you do when it is the state that is removing the rights of black people?
What do you do when it is the state that systemically discriminates?
Is inaction not a provocation? Is resistance to change acceptable?
So protest? Perhaps violently?
When nothing is done to make change - nothing changes.

And that means that the protests will repeat themselves. Including the violent ones...
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Post 29 Jun 2020, 1:18 pm

What exactly would the protest be about? There is a reason to protest if there is a pattern of unequal treatment by the state of a different race. What reason would blacks have to protest violence by blacks?

It's all very well to talk about treating everyone equally but we are not starting from square one. This is a society whose power has always been held primarily by males of white, European descent. This is why there is white privilege. You cannot easily root that out of people's minds. How many white male presidents of European have we had? They also have dominated other power centers over a long period of time. And, of course, there has also been state sanctioned discrimination against other racial groups until relatively recently. Women have only relatively recently been allowed into the work force in large numbers, still do not get paid as much, and still are not as well-represented in the top levels of power. These FACTS about societal roles get imprinted in people and create expectations about different groups. Over the years tv, radio, movies, newspapers, advertising has perpetuated stereotypes about different groups. It's getting SLOWLY better but there is still white privilege.

Officer Chauvin did not come out of nowhere. It's not he is just a bad dude. He grew up in a certain society in a certain time that helped create certain attitudes about black people in him and he was in a police culture that allowed him to abuse his power over black people. And probably he is only in trouble because this time he got caught on tape. It's hard to believe that over the years he has not abused his power many times and gotten away with it so often that he felt emboldened to do it in plain view.

It's not about unfairly favoring black people. But the problem does not just lie with him, we have to change the structure that keeps allowing this abuse of black people (and white people too but not as much) to keep happening.

And I think we have to do something financially to deal with the legacy that segregation and discrimination caused in black communities. There is a debt owed there. And no I dont believe in reparations if by that is meant cash payments to black people, but I do believe that more money needs to be spent in black communities to try and end the legacy of poverty created by discriminatory practices.
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Post 29 Jun 2020, 2:07 pm

So I take it you both support violence against people and people's property? After all, it is for the good of the movement!

Tell that to Ann Marie Dorn.
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Post 29 Jun 2020, 2:18 pm

I think that post was not worthy of you, Brad. If I provoked it somehow...I apologize.