This is a very difficult question for me. I have certainly have sympathy for business owners who have had their property damaged/destroyed and police officers and other innocent bystanders hurt. On the other hand...did the people who founded our country operate entirely within the law when they were oppressed by the British?

There has never been real change without fear of the Establishment that there could be social chaos if change is not made. If there is injustice..and it cannot be fixed within legal processes...and peaceful protests are met with words not action...must the people remain peaceful?

Yes, the government must maintain law and order. And they should call in the police and National Guard to do so. And put in curfews now. And people who commit crimes put into jail. They should understand that destroying and vandalizing property will mean going to jail if caught. And of course violence even more harshly punished. But they just saw a white police officer who thought he was so immune from following the law that he could put a knee on a black man's neck for 8 minutes in daylight until be was dead in plain view of bystanders! That says something is deeply wrong going on here. Real change does not occur over a nice discussion with tea and crumpets...

I never thought change was clean. As long as the protester is willing to accept the punishment, they can do as they choose, I guess.

I never thought arson, assault, murder or terrorizing communities is acceptable; whether it be 250 years ago or today.

To answer your question, should people remain peaceful? YES. We have a government to redress grievances.

I find it odd that you support revolution 250 years ago because of a 4 pence tax on tea, but support exorbitant taxes now. My how times have changed.

The colonists didnt revolt against a tax; they revolted because they had no say in that tax ("no taxation without representation").

As I said I am conflicted here. I would rather there just were peaceful protests and hopefully changes were made. But this aint the first time there have been protests about police brutality against black people. And it keeps happening. When people get this outraged, when they think the system is rigged against them...rarely do they just peacefully protest. When the social contract gets broken...when the government is by them, for them and over us...social disorder is bound to occur.

And who is going to implement change? Trump? The government through Trump has been throwing kerosene on racial issues for 3.5 years.

And I suspect as well there are other issues that are fueling anger, such as economic disparities and access to health care. The hostility towards immigrants. The pandemic has highlighted some disturbing inequalities in American society.

I think the point has been made and it is time to stop now, though. But my opinion doesnt much matter to those folks out protesting...

bbauska wrote:No comment on the riots?

The rioters are just as much criminals as the ex-police officer. The should all be in the same cell.

Please note I did not say protesters. A peaceful protester is well within their rights to assemble.

At least where I'm at, most of the rioters are cops, beating on people who want to assemble and express their constitutional rights. Those guys need to go away. I'm not sure they need to be locked up with murderers, though. I'd settle for them losing their badge, gun and pension.

Some public servants have forgotten who they serve.

I just wonder if there is an inherent structural issue here, where in a country where wealth is increasingly concentrated...the police are maybe given more carte blanche to maintain order. Whatever reforms are discussed...reducing wealth concentration should be part of the conversation

I have a nephew who is in law enforcement and it's amazing how quickly recruits get indoctrinated into an us versus them attitude. Police="us"; '"them" are the unsavory criminals and homeless they have to deal with. It just lends itself to abuse without good leadership.

I guess I disagree with GeoJanes. A police officer criminally assaulting someone needs to be incarcerated. A police officer murdering someone in the 1st degree need to be tried and punished to the fullest extent of the law.

bbauska wrote:I guess I disagree with GeoJanes. A police officer criminally assaulting someone needs to be incarcerated. A police officer murdering someone in the 1st degree need to be tried and punished to the fullest extent of the law.

Whatever. They just need to be off the street! We don't live in a police state!

There we agree. They do need to be off of the street, just like any other criminal...

Its an awfully complicated issue. But facing facts head on, and acknowledging reality can be a start.
Start with acknowledging that there is an imbalance between the risk US civilians face in encounters with police...
- In 2019 55 police officers died feloniously from civilians.(23 by black men)
- In 2019 1055 civilians died at the hands of police . (May be under reported due to inconsistent state and local standards. When a civilian is 20 times more likely to die in an encounter with police, there is some doubt that the motto "to serve and protect" is valid.

When a populace is endangered in this way, there are some systemic problems.
How do you deal with them?
- Increase police training. demand a university level education that includes education in sociology, psychology, history, ethics... and hands on training in deescalation, communication and etc.
-Increase police pay to reflect the value of the job, and the responsibility. Make the job rewards match the job value and the employee value.
- Standardize policing techniques and requirements across the country, and employ a national force to investigate all shootings and complaints. (Not sure about the national nature but investigators shouldn't be part of the policing community)

Then you've got the problem education and understanding throughout the populace. Did you know that until only a few years ago, the schools of Oklahoma never taught anything about the Tulsa race riots? Nor do schools in many parts of the nation teach the nature of slavery, lynchings, or the reality of the civil rights struggle.
On Sunday, a national security advisor stated that he didn't believe there is systemic race discrimination in the US. If, at that level, there is denial of a problem .... I don't know how society will advance...

Let's look at RickyP's numbers at a per capita basis...

As of 2018 there were 686,655 police officers and 55 killed (most recent number I could find)
As of 2019 there were 328 Million US residents and 1055 killed

Who has the higher percentage, Hmmm? Let's do the math, shall we?
55 divided by 686,655 is 0.00008009844
1055 divided by 328000000 is 0.00000321646

That means a Law Enforcement Officer is 27 times more likely to be killed than a civilian at the hands of the other!

Figures don't lie...

I do NOT think Chauvin should be exonerated at all. I have asked for the most stringent punishment that anyone else! I also have asked for the most stringent punishment of the looters/arsonist/murderers et al. !

You do the crime, you get hammered, regardless of the color of your uniform or lack there of.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/191694/number-of-law-enforcement-officers-in-the-us/
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=US+Population+2019

https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/retired-police-captain-shot-to-death-at-st-louis-pawn-shop-in-slaying-caught-on/article_d482138c-0224-5393-bd87-9898bebb3fd1.html

Good one, looters... Something to really be proud of. Standing up for America, like our Founding Fathers.

I hope this is not the change that is being sought.

bbauska

Let's look at RickyP's numbers at a per capita basis

Look at them on a per encounter basis....

First assume that for every encounter of a police with a civilian ... there is an encounter of a civilian with a police.

based on the numbers there are 1110 encounters where someone dies.
95% of the time its the civilian.

An encounter between a civilian and a police is much more risky for the civilian.
Figures don't lie.

I find it quite interesting that you like to use per capita when it supports your argument, and discount other views when it does not meet your narrative.

My statistics teacher in high school was right... Figures don't lie, but liars figure.

I do not mean that as a disparagement of you personally, but to show that people use statistics to make what ever fantasy they see seem real.

Perhaps it is reality in their way of thinking.

Brad, what's the flaw in Ricky's logic?

The numbers make sense, since most of the time in an encounter with a civilian, the cop has one or more lethal weapons and the civilian has none.

2 issues primarily.

Firstly, There are MANY instances of a police officer having to use deadly force to counter a threat from the person who got killed. Perhaps this is the number that needs to be removed from the statistics quoted by RickyP.

Secondly, the number quoted by RickyP is minute compared to the number of interactions with the police. How many of the 1055 fatalities were escalated by bad behavior of the civilian? How many were in self defense.

Having been shot at as a law enforcement officer, let me say that not every person who dies in the middle of a altercation is an angel.

There are bad people out there, and they need to be stopped by someone who is good. If a police officer is bad (Chauvin), it makes the job of the rest of law enforcement even more difficult.