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Post 15 Jun 2020, 6:50 am

rickyp wrote:bbauska
My clearly stated message as retort does not need re-packaging, as it IS clear.


Does it? As a retort does it acknowledge that Black's are at greater jeopardy when encountering police?
Does it acknowledge that the US justice system is systemically biased against blacks? Or that society has never really made up for the historical injustices dealt those with a black appearance?

As a retort its just a rhetorical jab intended to blunt the impact of BLM. Lately, as BLM seems to have gained acceptance and support by an increasing majority, its really just become an identifier for people who refuse to acknowledge the underlying truth of the BLM message.


The notion that Rickyp thinks he has more wisdom on this issue and PC cred to lecture someone who has an African American son is astounding. And BB's grace under this ridiculousness is commendable.
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Post 15 Jun 2020, 7:20 am

rayjay
The notion that Rickyp thinks he has more wisdom on this issue and PC cred to lecture someone who has an African American son is astounding. And BB's grace under this ridiculousness is commendable.


Here's a few other people whom share my view. Whether they are wise or not, you may judge by the content of their argument and perhaps argue accordingly. I assume that will be more difficult for you than an ad hominem attack.

At its face, "All Lives Matter" sounds like a we're-all-in-this-together statement. Some may be using the phrase to suggest that all races should join hands and stand together against racism, which is a sentiment that comes from a good place. But the problem is, the phrase actually takes the focus away from those who need it. Saying "All Lives Matter" redirects the attention from Black lives, who are the ones in peril.

https://www.goodhousekeeping.com/life/a ... ter-means/

Will Sutton: 'All Lives Matter' is offensive, exclusive and wrong. Let me explain why
.
https://www.nola.com/opinions/will_sutt ... fc1ac.html

History Of Slavery Professor Explains The Mistake In Saying ‘All Lives Matter’
https://www.elle.com/uk/life-and-cultur ... -equality/

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/lives-m ... 51416.html

https://twitter.com/kelieghbellx/status ... 09/photo/1
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Post 16 Jun 2020, 6:02 am

Ricky:
I assume that will be more difficult for you than an ad hominem attack.


It has nothing to do with difficulty. I have no argument with BLM. I used an ad hominem attack because I think it is very weird to criticize someone for not being woke enough on these matters when they have an African American child. It goes to your character and humanity. It has nothing to do with the arguments at hand. Sure, perhaps if you were a close friend you could politely disagree. But you have no standing to argue with him as if you are morally superior.

By way of example, I recently had an exchange with a holocaust survivor who compared Trump to Hitler. I inwardly vehemently disagree, but I held my tongue (really keyboard).
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Post 16 Jun 2020, 11:09 am

Well, Hitler also riled up race relations, was pro-business, lied with impunity, had no respect for democratic insitutions and was trying to make Germany great again. There is one difference: Hitler was very pro-German while Trump is very pro-Russian...

I'm just kidding. There is a huge difference in scale. And Trump is not, well, evil like Hitler was. That being said, I think moderates in this country (and Republicans in power) have consistently rationalized the damage to democratic norms that Trump is inflicting and also to our international interests. He is carrying out Putin's wish list of ending the Pax Americana that has been so beneficial to us and the world since WWII.
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Post 17 Jun 2020, 7:46 am

ray jay
I have no argument with BLM.

And yet it was BBuaska's use of All Lives Matter that I took issue with...
And which you haven't bothered to address. .

I'll restate.
The slogan "All Lives Matter" - used as a rejoinder to "Black Lives Matter"
is a cop out.
If "All Lives Mattered" to Everyone of course we wouldn't have gotten to a situation where the slogan "Black Lives Matter" can mean- with complete validity
- Blacks face enormous discrimination in the US justice system
-Blacks face much greater jeopardy in each encounter with police

But you can't logically agree that Black Lives Matter is largely correct - and say All Lives Matter as a meaningful response. The phrase becomes meaningless, to anyone who can agree that the the phrase BLM is correct. Because if you are saying BLM, then by definition that "All Lives Do Not Matter Equally".
- This isn't saying that All Lives shouldn't matter equally. Its saying that one recognizes the reality in today's society.
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Post 17 Jun 2020, 12:45 pm

In general I think you have a point, Ricky. But Brad has committed to being non-racist in actions, not just in words."Hence it is that an individual cannot know what he is until he makes himself real by action."--Hegel. Ponder over the enormous commitment to non-racism it takes to adopt a black child. And in general Brad has displayed on this board an unwavering commitment to the equal treatment of others under the law (which I dont always agree with...e.g, taxes) You might at least acknowledge that in your arguments, though in substance I think youre right.
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Post 17 Jun 2020, 3:27 pm

By the way, I am having a hard time with the Rayshard Brooks case and filing a charge of murder. I mean, maybe I am just brainwashed...but If I resist arrest grab a taser and start running and point my taser at the officer...I am probably expecting to get shot! Even if I shouldnt be. I think it was too much force but this is kind of the case where you lose people. It was a borderline misjudgment. The officers were not mistreating Brooks. He had no reason to do what he did. I am just not comfortable with a murder charge there. He had a taser and that can be lethal and he pointed it at the officer. I'm ok with the officer being fired. Maybe manslaughter if it was clear that the taser did not pose a threat of serious bodily injury when he was shot, but I am not even sure of that.

By the way, I dont even think it was an unconstitutional seizure under the constitution per Tennessee V Garner.

"A police officer may not seize an unarmed, nondangerous suspect by shooting him dead. The Tennessee statute is unconstitutional insofar as it authorizes the use of deadly force against such fleeing suspects.

It is not, however, unconstitutional on its face. Where the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a threat of serious physical harm, either to the officer or to others, it is not constitutionally unreasonable to prevent escape by using deadly force. Thus, if the suspect threatens the officer with a weapon or there is probable cause to believe that he has committed a crime involving the infliction or threatened infliction of serious physical harm, deadly force may be used if necessary to prevent escape, and if, where [471 U.S. 1, 12]  feasible, some warning has been given. As applied in such circumstances, the Tennessee statute would pass constitutional muster"

I do have sympathy for situation Brooks was in as far as being on probation, having difficulty dealing with all the issues that causes in a person's life. One could surmise that the prospect of going back to jail for perhaps a significant period likely caused him to be desperate. But, you know, that was a very rash action on his part. Risking everything to avoid a few months in jail...not worth it.
Last edited by freeman3 on 17 Jun 2020, 7:23 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Post 17 Jun 2020, 7:12 pm

I'm sure this case is making Trump very, very happy right now. Just the sort of overreach that is going to get that scumbag reeelected...
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Post 18 Jun 2020, 8:16 am

You might at least acknowledge that in your arguments, though in substance I think youre right.


History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

I think saying "All Lives Matter", even if meant sincerely - and I believe Brad is sincere, and perhaps a rare person in his sincerity - is essentially silence in the face of evil.
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Post 18 Jun 2020, 9:32 am

I believe the problem is deeper than just police mistreatment of black people. One of the studies that was cited in the article I posted found police brutality to be more of a class problem than a racial one. The theory that police treat poor communities worse and black communities just happen to be poorer on average could be at least a partial explanation. In 2017 and 2018 twice as many white people were killed by police as black people (in 2019 the difference was less) though blacks were up to 2.5 times more likely than white people to be killed by police. But is that all racially based or it also at least in part class-based, as black communities tend to be poorer on average? I saw recent stats indicating 24% of people killed by police were black people while they make up 13% of the population; the NIH study cited below found 52% of people killed by police in 17 states from 2009-2012 were white, 32% were black and blacks were 2.8 times likelier than whites to be killed by police. And there have been some appalling killings of white people in recent years by police.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.statis ... americans/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6080222/

I think Blacks do get treated a good deal worse than whites by police regardless of class but there is a deeper problem (there is a lot of evidence that they are treated worse in the criminal justice system as was demonstrated in the article I cited). And it has to do with wealth stratification. As wealth has been shifted to the investor class (from memory the DOW has gone up 3,000% since 1990 while median wages have gone up 30% in real terms and even that is a distortion because it doesnt factor in the huge growth in student loans, the cost of housing, and predatory lending, including credit cards). So the police have been entrusted to keep poor communities under control. Their budgets have skyrocketed, there is always money for the police in municipal budgets. Unlike most workers police are typically paid well with great benefits at least in major cities and their job is to ensure that property is protected and the economy can flow smoothly without people in wealthier communities having to worry about crime (what do you think stop and frisk was about?). And they have largely been given a free hand to do this. Black communities have suffered disproportionately but it hasnt just hit them.

Police reform should also include economic justice. Putting most workers in an economic vise and then throwing money at the police to control them is pretty insane social policy. More jobs, higher minimum wage, more regulations preventing predatory lending, caps on what percentage of income with regard to student loans must be paid. Universal access to health care. More social programs in poor communities. White people should see that while blacks are being treated worse that they also have been an interest in getting the police under control. And unless we change policies that are concentrating wealth in a few hands we are unlikely to get effective police reform.
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Post 19 Jun 2020, 7:03 am

freeman3
higher minimum wage, more regulations preventing predatory lending, caps on what percentage of income with regard to student loans must be paid. Universal access to health care. More social programs in poor communities

Good lord. You're turning into a socialist.
Or a Dane, or German or Canadian.
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Post 19 Jun 2020, 3:26 pm

Not exactly. But I think that "government of the people, by the people, for the people"...needs to be more than just for a few people.

America is different. We are not as communally oriented as Asian countries or even European ones. We have more of an individualistic streak, more into freedom than community, and less worried about the safety net than having the opportunity to succeed on one's own merits. And that freedom to succeed, to invent, to create wealth unhindered by where one came from is, I think, still one our strengths.

But I do not believe the financialization of our economy-the way we have constructed our economy so that much of our wealth flows from investments-- is necessary to foster the individual brilliance that our culture fosters. Work is fundamental. And our system right now is devaluing work and overvaluing investments. And we can reward individual achievement while still having an adequate safety net, making sure workers get a decent wage, vacation and retirement. That should be part of the social contract. We were in the process of constructing a society of the haves and the have-nots with the police protecting the haves...hopefully, we can find a better way.

Greed is not good. “I hate most people. “I have a competition in me. I want no one else to succeed.”---Daniel Plainview (from There Will Be Blood). Yes, we want people to create something great with their ingenuity--but not just to benefit them! People take from the community...but they also give back. Teddy Roosevelt, FDR, JFK all came from privileged families but they believed in public service.

Now we have a president who is the epitamy of selfish egoism. He wins...but everyone else loses! When the banks lost 900 million...he won! When his casinos failed and shareholders lost all their money...he still won! And now--clearly to serve his interests, financial or otherwise, he has been willing to serve Russian political interests at the expense of our own. Our national character has hit rock bottom with Trump--he is a symbol of how deeply off-course we have gone.
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Post 21 Jun 2020, 2:07 pm

freeman3
We have more of an individualistic streak, more into freedom than community, and less worried about the safety net than having the opportunity to succeed on one's own merits. And that freedom to succeed, to invent, to create wealth unhindered by where one came from is, I think, still one our strengths.


Well believing this is a pretty important American myth. And believing also that somehow creating a more equitable society can't also create spectacular winners, without sacrificing an underclass to perpetual want.....

There are more billionaires per capita Sweden, Iceland and Norway than in the US.....

https://www.businessinsider.com/countri ... ion-2015-7

There is greater social mobility in most other advanced nations... The US is ranked 27 in the Global Social Mobility Index.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_So ... ndex_(2020)

Its actually the safety net that allows a child to succeed based on his or her own merits . Which is why social mobility of Denmark and Norway are so high.
Its the absence of social safety nets (like free or low cost quality education, free at point of service health care, and progressive taxation that provides the ability to pay for these and other societal goods) that anchors so many young Americans in poverty. Or impoverishes their lives due to debt...
https://www.valuepenguin.com/average-student-loan-debt

Anyway, everything you've listed about economic justice would move towards greater social mobility. And reduce a crime, as more equitable societies have less crime. (So you need to spend less on policing.)
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Post 25 Jun 2020, 12:27 pm

First off, been on vacation for a bit. Freeman, thank you for the compliment about treating all equally, and defending my adoption of my son.

RickyP: Does the phrase "All Black Lives Matter" meet your approval?
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Post 26 Jun 2020, 6:18 am

bbauska wrote:First off, been on vacation for a bit. Freeman, thank you for the compliment about treating all equally, and defending my adoption of my son.

RickyP: Does the phrase "All Black Lives Matter" meet your approval?


Personally, I like that phraseology better.