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Statesman
 
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Post 21 Jul 2021, 12:55 pm

You know, I have a major problem with Becerra's statement. The government should not give us a SENSE that we have freedom. The government should ensure that our inalienable rights are not being infringed upon. Sure this could be a mis-speak, but it shows a trend line of this administrations desire to infringe upon the rights of American


Who's rights are being infringed?

You have a right to know that when you go to a restaurant that you won't suffer from food poisoning because the staff practice poor hygiene. The restaurant owner has the right to fire a staff member for endangering his customers if the staff member doesn't wash his hands after using the bathroom....

Or does the staff member who is, for whatever cockamamie reason, perhaps he feels it is against nature, opposed to washing his hands . have a right to ignore hygiene standards as a personal freedom?

A business, school, hospital, cruise ship etc have every right to ensure that they are providing a safe environment. If a member of their staff or the public can't provide convincing evidence that they are vaccinated they should be able to deny that person entry. The rights of the owner and his many customers greatly out weight any right to privacy or freedom not to comply.
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Post 21 Jul 2021, 1:41 pm

Perhaps you didn't read the link.

The article was talking about vaccination requirements, and "vaccination passports". These options are being considered by the administration and the HHS secretary says he wants the "Government to give the SENSE of freedom."

Do you think it is the government's responsibility to give freedom or only the "SENSE" of freedom?

As for me and my house we choose actual freedom.

Perhaps you only want a sense of freedom...

I will answer your statements one at a time.
- Having suffered from food poisoning at a restaurant (It was in Montreal, btw); yes.
- The owner should have the right to CHOOSE to fire regardless of reason.
- If an employee CHOOSES to work at a business, they have the responsibility to follow the practices set forth by that business. They can CHOOSE to not work there.
- If a business chooses to have requirements regarding safety they can implement them as they see fit. If the public CHOOSES to not go to that business because of a business' belief, then so be it.

We have had this discussion before concerning a business' right to serve whatever product and let the customer CHOOSE if they wish to financially support that business. As I recall you said that the customer has the right to enforce a business to serve them the way the customer CHOOSES. Now you say that the business gets to CHOOSE.

It is interesting to see your double-minded and wavering opinion just to fit your belief.

That shows an incredible lack of standard. I CHOSE the word incredible for the definition.

Incredible: adjective
adjective: incredible

1. impossible to believe.


Post Script: This post was brought to you by the word choose/chose
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Post 21 Jul 2021, 6:49 pm

The Biden Administration has indicated that it doesnt want to be involved in vaccine passports. Of course the Delta virus is running rampant through the unvaccinated population while complications of vaccines have been rare. Those are the facts.

As for freedoms being infringed upon...that really depends on the threat to public health. It's odious for the government to have to try and pressure people to do something they should do--like take a vaccine--but we'll just have to see how things play out. If everyone had gotten vaccinated Covid would be virtually dead in its tracks in the US. But a lot of people have refused to get vaccinated so the virus is still running rampant. And in one sense that's maybe not a big deal if youre vaccinated (though a relative--fully vaccinated--just lost their sense of smell after they got sick after going to Louisiana, a place where there is a low rate of vaccination) But of course as long as the virus is active among the unvaccinated, then it can continue to mutate, perhaps hampering the vaccines' effectiveness at some point.

As they say another man's freedom...ends when his elbow hits my nose. And between some refusing to wear masks and refusing to get vaccinated...my nose is getting hit a lot. I'm sick of this dang virus and the unvaccinated are basically preventing us from getting back to normal (though at least at present it's pretty close, but still not totally comfortable). So at some point I think we stop asking so nicely. But we're not there yet...because again it would be so odious and hopefuly it wont be necessary. And hopefully part of that is unvaccinated people..seeing whats happening out there....will choose to get vaccinated. But if not and if the virus is continuing to plague us then, yeah, restricting people from some public areas wil be a consideration. Power flows from.necessity sometimes. Thats what Lincoln thought in the Civil War. If we cant beat this virus without pressure being put on people in different ways to get vaccinated...then it's likely that will happen. Thats the reality.
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Post 22 Jul 2021, 12:47 pm

bbauska
As I recall you said that the customer has the right to enforce a business to serve them the way the customer CHOOSES. Now you say that the business gets to CHOOSE.

You recall wrongly.

A business has a valid reason to discriminate against people who make their premises less safe.
Being gay doesn't endanger anyone.
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Post 22 Jul 2021, 12:50 pm

You may be interested in this new study on the origins of Covid done in Italy.

There are no robust data on the real onset of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) infection and spread in the prepandemic period worldwide. We investigated the presence of SARS-CoV-2 receptor-binding domain (RBD)–specific antibodies in blood samples of 959 asymptomatic individuals enrolled in a prospective lung cancer screening trial between September 2019 and March 2020 to track the date of onset, frequency, and temporal and geographic variations across the Italian regions. SARS-CoV-2 RBD-specific antibodies were detected in 111 of 959 (11.6%) individuals, starting from September 2019 (14%), with a cluster of positive cases (>30%) in the second week of February 2020 and the highest number (53.2%) in Lombardy. This study shows an unexpected very early circulation of SARS-CoV-2 among asymptomatic individuals in Italy several months before the first patient was identified, and clarifies the onset and spread of the coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) pandemic. Finding SARS-CoV-2 antibodies in asymptomatic people before the COVID-19 outbreak in Italy may reshape the history of pandemic.


https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.117 ... 1620974755

Kind of puts a kink in the "made in China" story.
I think its worth waiting till there is a more definitive scientific investigation...
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Post 22 Jul 2021, 4:36 pm

You seem to pick and CHOOSE what discrimination is allowed.

Also, you have not answered the base question in the post about Sec. Beccara's quote. Let me put it up again for you. Please let me know what you think this time.

Do you think it is the government's responsibility to give freedom or only the "SENSE" of freedom?
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Post 23 Jul 2021, 5:19 am

rickyp wrote:You may be interested in this new study on the origins of Covid done in Italy.

There are no robust data on the real onset of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) infection and spread in the prepandemic period worldwide. We investigated the presence of SARS-CoV-2 receptor-binding domain (RBD)–specific antibodies in blood samples of 959 asymptomatic individuals enrolled in a prospective lung cancer screening trial between September 2019 and March 2020 to track the date of onset, frequency, and temporal and geographic variations across the Italian regions. SARS-CoV-2 RBD-specific antibodies were detected in 111 of 959 (11.6%) individuals, starting from September 2019 (14%), with a cluster of positive cases (>30%) in the second week of February 2020 and the highest number (53.2%) in Lombardy. This study shows an unexpected very early circulation of SARS-CoV-2 among asymptomatic individuals in Italy several months before the first patient was identified, and clarifies the onset and spread of the coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) pandemic. Finding SARS-CoV-2 antibodies in asymptomatic people before the COVID-19 outbreak in Italy may reshape the history of pandemic.


https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.117 ... 1620974755

Kind of puts a kink in the "made in China" story.
I think its worth waiting till there is a more definitive scientific investigation...


It's an interesting study -- thanks
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Post 23 Jul 2021, 12:13 pm

It is interesting. But the study also cites a Harvard study finding hospital traffic picking up in Wuhan as early as late summer 2019. It's another data point. My main irritation was the attempt to shut down hypotheses--that's just not scientific. I dont think this Italian study shuts down Wuhan as Ground Zero for the pandemic, though. It just indicates the virus was circulating earlier than thought in Italy. But see Harvard study (yes hospital traffic is not the same as finding Covid in blood samples..but then again the Chinese wont give us blood samples...)

And China still needs to cooperate in the investigation. Which they are not doing...
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Post 23 Jul 2021, 1:21 pm

What it might do is make the 3 researchers getting sick in the lab in November less interesting...
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Statesman
 
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Post 26 Jul 2021, 8:55 am

freeman3
What it might do is make the 3 researchers getting sick in the lab in November less interesting..


The "alleged 3 researchers".
names have never been given by those claiming to know this... . Source for the information has never been supplied.....
The Australian working in Wuhan lab at this time, never heard anything about this...
So until you have some corroboration for this claim please be cautious.

China should cooperate. But they won't. There is a long history of China's interactions with the west, where they bent to the will of the west and got screwed over. They have always resisted international standards, and international law, and what they see as interference in the domestic affairs of China.
And that includes decades before the Communists came to power. You see it reflected in their attitude towards international trade treaties where they accept that which will profit them and resist that which they see as "interference". One need the entire world to insist on treaty obligations or China plays one off another and does what they want. (Why backing out of Asia Pacific Trade pact was a huge mistake.)
There is nothing unusual about them resisting scrutiny in this matter . And thus should not be taken as an indication that there was a leak.
Indeed their cooperation in the initial identification, after a couple of weeks of low level beauracrats bungling the response, was exemplary. Remember who gave every body the DNA sequencing that allowed the rapid development of the vaccine. And it should be noted that scientists at Wuhan published their research regularly...

If the Covid 19 virus was around longer than originally suspected, as the Italian research shows, its likely we'll never know definitively where the virus came from. We only know that "super spreader" events lead to rapid spread. In China the wet market. In Italy, probably contact with health care providers at old folks homes and etc.

I find it hard to focus on conspiracies with only very limited plausibility when obvious answers with accepted high probability exist. Especially since even if the definitve answer were known it would in no way effect the current situation.

There has to be a nefarious purpose behind the spread of these conspiracy theories". And that purpose is to deflect from the failings of the response to the virus.

And not just initial failings. The death rate in the US continues to climb as vaccination rates plummet and "freedom fetishists" refuse to follow public health protocols.
So, having the Chinese to blame, both distracts and confuses the public .... Who seem to be easily distracted and confused.
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Post 26 Jul 2021, 9:28 am

Do you think it is the government's responsibility to give freedom or only the "SENSE" of freedom?


The quotation

"We want to give people the sense that they have the freedom to choose, but we hope that they choose to live," he added when pressed.


He apparently thinks you have to fool Americans into doing the responsible thing...

I agree that it would be better to be honest and blunt. Get vaccinated or suffer the consequences of being a potential carrier and/or victim.
If you don't you will be barred from travelling on planes and trains. etc.

If the NFL can put restrictions on layers to force them into line ... because a covid out break would damage their business.... every business should be able to do that...
Especially when state governments don't seem to be responsible or courageous enough to take the necessary public health steps.

Your freedom to do whatever you want ends when the consequences of what you want to do may be effecting others...

BTW the US is not a uniquely free nation. In fact It ranks 15th in the Freedom Index . Way behind the leader New Zealand, who dealt with Covid as a public health threat very effectively.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/count ... -countries
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Post 26 Jul 2021, 1:16 pm

It is not an honesty or bluntness issue.

It is whether the government is to either provide freedom or a sense of freedom. The government can close out Federal parks, buildings and businesses such as the Post office and Amtrak. Freedom is the issue here.

You should not be trying to "fool" the constituents. Provide the facts, and let the people decide.

If a business chooses to be open, let it be open. If a business does not wish to do business, it should be free to make that choice as well. Let the people have the freedom to go where they wish to (or NOT wish to).

I certainly understand that there are some who are fearful of going out because of the lack of mask usage. That is fine. Hear me again... THAT IS FINE. THEY HAVE THAT FREEDOM OF CHOICE. They can call their store and have curbside pickup. They can go to stores that only allow mask wearers inside. As a consumer, I would (and have!) made the choice to not spend my money in a store that mandates mask usage. That is the Lassez-Faire attitude that the economic freedom index you quote is based upon

There have been stores that prohibit entry to people who are not senior citizens during a certain time. I am fine with that as well. They have that freedom of choice as a business.

The NFL has that right to make decisions for their business.

My problem is when a government is making the choice for people and businesses.

BTW, I wish the US was higher in the freedom index. The economic freedom is based upon who and who not to do business with. I remember a baker and florist who would like to see the economic freedom increase.

Economic freedom, also known as economic liberty, consists of personal choice, voluntary exchange, freedom to compete in markets, and protection of person and property. Economic freedom allows people to prosper in a country without intervention from the government or economic authority. Economic freedom can be seen in capitalism or "laissez-faire" economies, where means of production are privately owned, and the government has little to no control over businesses.
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Post 27 Jul 2021, 7:26 am

Ricky:

"I find it hard to focus on conspiracies with only very limited plausibility when obvious answers with accepted high probability exist. Especially since even if the definitve answer were known it would in no way effect the current situation."



You find it hard because you are anti-American--a democracy that was instrumental in helping keep the world safe from fascist and communist domination-- and pro-Chinese--a totalitarian country who as part of its Covid cover-up committed human rights violations against its own people. You have no ability to make an assessment of whether there are high-probability alternative explanations for the cause of the pandemic, you simply chose the explanation that suits your political point of view. We get that youre biased in favor of communist, totalitarian countries (I have never seen you say a bad word about Russia or China, whereas there is never-ending criticism of the US coming from you) So stop with your condescension. You dont debate fairly and it's aggravating when you pontificate about your supposed scientific sophistication about what caused Covid when you dont have that expertise and youre just parroting a line favorable to China (and gain of function researchers), which engaged in a cover-up and which has a scary amount of influence in the scientific community due to its massive donations to universities in the US and elsewhere, which mostly is to gain access to cutting-edge research, but sure comes in handy when you want scientists dependent on Chinese research to give opinions pointing away from a lab leak as as an explanation. There should never been this attempt to rule out a lab leak before there was certainty as to what happened. And by the way, that Italian study in no way points away from Wuhan as a source for the Covid outbreak as you seem to think. The outbreak started in Wuhan for a reason and the most likely explanation is that the virus started circulating there first. Sure, Covid could have started anywhere in the world according to you...but just happens to hit hard in the one place where there are all these bats with viruses similar to Covid...

Anyway, Im done debating here since it basically means debating with Ricky and I dont see the point of that. I dont need the aggravation.
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Post 27 Jul 2021, 8:40 am

Word!
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Post 28 Jul 2021, 8:18 am

freeman3
You find it hard because you are anti-American


Bullshit

You have no ability to make an assessment of whether there are high-probability alternative explanations for the cause of the pandemic


I don't pretend to have the expertise of a virologist. You seem to. After all most experts in the field haven't arrived at any conclusions yet. You have...

Freeman3
And by the way, that Italian study in no way points away from Wuhan as a source for the Covid outbreak as you seem to think.

What it clearly indicates is that the Sars-Covid19 virus was in circulation in Italy in August.
That suggests that there is a possibility that the virus may have originated there. That is the first species transmission occurred there. And not China.
But that only a possibility.
I've said all along that science should be allowed to function without political influence.

China really shut down as soon as right wing Americans started "blaming China". And thats because they politicize everything - including science.
Its why the US is an outlier in acceptance of many things. Climate Change, Vaccinations, etc.

freeman3
Anyway, I'm done debating here since it basically means debating with Ricky and I don't see the point of that. I don't need the aggravation.


What you need to do is learn that everything isn't cut and dried us versus them.... Good versus evil.
Outside of the US there is a different world view because we don't immediately think that way.
When you, like your President Trump, want so badly to find a way to blame China for US shortcoming in dealing with Covid - you distort reasoning and poison the discourse. And nothing gets solved.