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Adjutant
 
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Post 18 Nov 2021, 9:47 am

It's not a question of it not being easy...it's a question of it being much harder for black folks!

Sure, it's easier if you're married. But you have to have money to support a family. So it would help if the minimum wage were raised along with policies that would raise wages in general instead of so much going to investors. So if you're going to blame black poverty on women having children out-of-wedlock look no further than the lack of good paying jobs. And again the structural impediments to blacks succeeding. And of course many black people live in segregated communities heavily policed.

Racism isn't something that happened a long time ago and blacks are just whining about problems of their own making. Those problems persist into today and were externally caused. As a society we have a responsibility to try and fix those problems so that blacks have a fair chance. That's why I support reparations. It's not because they had an ancestor who was a slave; it's the effects of that racism persist in black communities which are still largely segregated (even the ground temperature is hotter in those neighborhoods),communities with a lack of investment, even grocery stores, and the worst problem is the culture which keeps sending negative judgments regarding their ability. "your problem is that your immoral--you have children without getting married!" I'm sure that's every woman's dream--raising kids by themselves...
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Statesman
 
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Post 18 Nov 2021, 12:40 pm

bbauska
As to gerrymandering... The equality scale has wandered over time to one side or another. I could say win states, and you can set the district. But I won't. Winning a state legislature election does have consequences. Remember that quote?


Yes, in the US winning State legislatures does have consequences. But when the consequences distort democracy, is that good?

BTW, there are neutral sources that keep track of the effects of gerry mandering.
here:
https://www.politico.com/interactives/2 ... -district/

So far redistricting this time, going one way.
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Post 19 Nov 2021, 7:03 am

First off, sorry for the delay. My son is graduating Boot Camp today, and we are prepping for his return.

RickyP,
Considering that we agree that the process should not be anything but equal, and both sides have been egregious in this area; how would you correct this? I think a basic Tetris-like game view is in order. Do you think that having specific "inner city" gerrymandering is OK if it protects a specific race or gender candidate?

Freeman,
I think that some grace to a young kid who shoplifts is proper, but the DUI/drug/theft/gang activity/assault/murder is unacceptable, and should not be forgiven regarding the felon non-voting. You are old enough to know better regardless of the background/race/sex of the offender.
My brother-in-law and I had this very discussion. He wanted to have his voting rights back because of a felony when he was in his 20s. He would definitely vote conservative. I held the same position that he should not (Man, was he ticked!), and that is what makes my position as close to equal as possible. Both sides have persons that wish to vote, but cannot due to felonies.
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Post 19 Nov 2021, 3:21 pm

bbauska in most nations with better democratic institutions an independent electoral commission draws up electoral boundaries based upon fundamentals usually described in the constitution.

The US Constitution is a badly flawed document compared to other modern democracies constitutions.
Happens when its so hard to revise.
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Adjutant
 
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Post 19 Nov 2021, 5:38 pm

"Freeman,
I think that some grace to a young kid who shoplifts is proper, but the DUI/drug/theft/gang activity/assault/murder is unacceptable, and should not be forgiven regarding the felon non-voting. You are old enough to know better regardless of the background/race/sex of the offender.
My brother-in-law and I had this very discussion. He wanted to have his voting rights back because of a felony when he was in his 20s. He would definitely vote conservative. I held the same position that he should not (Man, was he ticked!), and that is what makes my position as close to equal as possible. Both sides have persons that wish to vote, but cannot due to felonies."

? This wasn't part of the recent discussion.
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Post 20 Nov 2021, 6:16 am

I thought we were talking about why Blacks have trouble voting, and are needing extra "special" dispensations because of their race.

We were discussing the felons problems. If I am mistaken, please re-direct me.
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Adjutant
 
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Post 20 Nov 2021, 9:27 am

I was focusing on one thing: whether you and a poor black kid were in the same situation...

But, yeah, I don't see the justification for it. Your bother-in-law did bad thing in his 20s...and now he can never give his input into elections ever again? Just because youre fair with treating your brother-in-law equally doesn' mean you haven't been influenced by Republican ideology on this, where they realize that they can exclude a lot more Democratic voters than Republcan ones. Once they're off or probation or parole they should be able to vote. Casting them out of politics for a crime....why should they lose such an important right permanently over it? They're "bad" people who shouldn't vote because what...they're going to vote for bad things? Give me a rationale here. It just seems punitive for no particular reason. It's basically you did a bad thing or things and now you're in political exile. For a while ok. But not permanently.
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Post 20 Nov 2021, 3:37 pm

I apologize for misunderstanding you. I thought you wanted to talk about felons and voting. You wanted to bring race into it. I understand now.

No, I do not want this to turn into a race argument. A felon can be any race, gender or sexual identity. None of those things matter one bit to me. A felon is a felon.
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Adjutant
 
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Post 20 Nov 2021, 6:55 pm

Actually you misunderstood me again. Probably time for me to withdraw from this debate.
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Post 21 Nov 2021, 5:35 am

Freeman,
I do not wish to frustrate, and I am sorry that I am not understanding your point.

Posted by bbauska on 18 Nov 2021, 5:29 am
I certainly do not believe anyone has it like anyone else.


I meant that. I fully do not understand what it means to be black in America.

"If the solutions were easy, we would have solved the challenge long ago, but they are not. The root causes of community violence are deep, complex, and generations in the making."
— Chicago Mayor Lori Lightfoot


To me this sounds like the acceptance and excuse-making regarding the problem.
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Post 01 Dec 2021, 4:47 am

bbauska wrote:No, I do not want this to turn into a race argument. A felon can be any race, gender or sexual identity. None of those things matter one bit to me. A felon is a felon.


Yes. For me the key difference is whether that felon has served their debt to society or not. That's what the sentencing is for. If someone is jailed/imprisoned, they lose their licence to act freely, and in that situation it makes sense to withhold the right to vote (in the UK inmates cannot vote, although in many European countries they can - qualifications and conditions vary - and we have had court challenges to the UK law).

For someone on parole, they can be deemed as still serving their sentence, and then there is a question of whether having more liberty means they should be allowed to vote or not.

However, if a felon has served their sentence, has completed parole and is now out of the justice system, they have have done their time. It seems unjust to add a second punishment of losing a vote in perpetuity.
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Post 16 Dec 2021, 12:03 pm

Canadians who will be 18 years of age or older on polling day and who are in a correctional institution or a federal penitentiary in Canada may vote by special ballot in an election or referendum.

In the federal election in 2011, voter turnout was 54 per cent in penitentiaries, not far below the 61 per cent who exercised their democratic right in the general population.
There are about 22,000 federal inmates right now.

A 2002 Supreme Court of Canada judgment gave federal prisoners the right to vote on constitutional grounds, ruling 5-4 that voting is a fundamental right in a democracy.

Thought this might be interesting...