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Post 22 Apr 2015, 8:30 am

So often, one contributor here has praised South Africa. After all, they rid themselves of apartheid and isn't that good?

Well, yes.

But, there is more than that to the story. How you rid yourself of apartheid is also important. Right now, the country is nearing chaos as "outsiders" are set aflame and the economy and infrastructure are crumbling.

It is not okay that South Africans set human beings alight with tires around their necks and watch them scream in agony as they burn to death. Because they were born somewhere else. The same people who once fed and clothed our liberators, who were forced to leave everything behind and travel thousands of kilometers to seek a safe haven from genocidal wars, are carved to pieces with machetes and smashed to bits with bricks as soon as they cross our borders. How many more ‘others’ must be mutilated before we admit that the demon lives within?
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Post 22 Apr 2015, 8:49 am

fate
Right now, the country is nearing chaos as "outsiders" are set aflame and the economy and infrastructure are crumbling.


Right now?
This crime occurred in 2008.
The problem that the story reports, below, is about police inaction and incompetence in the face of frequent crime.

http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/2015/0 ... -case-shut

South Africa is not a model nation. Whatever your expectations might be, social development of a nation doesn't occur over night. The economic problems in South Africa always existed for the vast majority of people. It was only that Apartheid provided most of the wealth to whites.
And crime is always a problem in nations where vast income disparity exists. Especially South Africa.

However, it is a model for how international sanctions and cooperation can eliminate a great evil. Apartheid. And how a society can begin to heal itself from a calamity like apartheid non-violently.
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Post 22 Apr 2015, 8:54 am

Quote from RickyP:
Right now?
This crime occurred in 2008.


And yet RickyP brings up the Crusades every chance he gets :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
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Post 22 Apr 2015, 9:45 am

rickyp wrote:fate
Right now, the country is nearing chaos as "outsiders" are set aflame and the economy and infrastructure are crumbling.


Right now?
This crime occurred in 2008.
The problem that the story reports, below, is about police inaction and incompetence in the face of frequent crime.

http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/2015/0 ... -case-shut


It's not like it's stopped. http://www.news.com.au/world/vigilantes ... 6103096556

http://whatishappeninginsouthafrica.blo ... frica.html

Oh, and less than a week ago, we see this:

April 21, 2015: The United States on Monday knocked a late spate of assaults on outsiders living in South Africa, asking South African pioneers to denounce the xenophobic savagery.

“We have joined the South African government and common society pioneers in emphatically denouncing the savagery against outsiders,” State Department representative Marie Harf told correspondents at a day by day news instructions, voicing “profound concern” about the loss of lives and property and the effect on families and groups.

Seven individuals have been murdered, among them three South Africans and four remote nationals, since the savagery ejected on March 25, with several outside possessed shops smouldered or plundered and a large number of non-natives uprooted.

The xenophobia was allegedly started by developing controversy by local people that outsiders have entered the nation illicitly, occupied with unlawful exchange and carried out criminal acts.


And, this from yesterday:

Johannesburg (AFP) - South African soldiers will be deployed to quell anti-immigrant violence that has killed at least seven people in several weeks of unrest, Defence Minister Nosiviwe Mapisa-Nqakula said Tuesday.

Police have struggled to contain mobs who have attacked foreigners from Zimbabwe, Malawi, Mozambique and other African countries in both the economic capital Johannesburg and in the port city of Durban.

The government had vowed to crack down strongly on the unrest, but the decision to put soldiers on the streets came after two nights of relative quiet in both cities.


rickyp wrote:South Africa is not a model nation. Whatever your expectations might be, social development of a nation doesn't occur over night.


I never suggested it would. However, the transition was abrupt, brought about by foreign disinvestment, and the results have not been too encouraging.

The economic problems in South Africa always existed for the vast majority of people. It was only that Apartheid provided most of the wealth to whites.


True to some extent, but stripping the whites of their land and wealth has not resulted in widespread prosperity, has it?

And crime is always a problem in nations where vast income disparity exists. Especially South Africa.


How many other countries have bike-jacking as a common crime? How many other countries demand in-home security nearly everywhere?

However, it is a model for how international sanctions and cooperation can eliminate a great evil. Apartheid. And how a society can begin to heal itself from a calamity like apartheid non-violently.


Let me know when the non-violent healing starts.
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Post 22 Apr 2015, 12:33 pm

fate
True to some extent, but stripping the whites of their land and wealth has not resulted in widespread prosperity, has it

Is this an argument that apartheid was a good thing?

How do you think the Whites got their land and wealth? They took it from Blacks and forcibly relocated the Blacks.
The program of redistribution after Apartheid ended was a lot different then your characterization...which does fit the activities between 1960 and 1980 when whites stole their land and wealth... see below.


Apartheid was responsible for the largest population movement and dispossession of the 20th century: between 1960 and 1980 more than 3.5 million blacks were evicted from their land and relegated to homelands or to townships surrounding the big cities. Stripped of land, blacks were no longer potential rivals for white farmers. They became a cheap labour pool for farming, mining and industry. When the African National Congress (ANC) came to power in 1994, it promised to change a landscape in which 60,000 white farmers held 87% of the fertile land and millions of blacks shared 13%. No one believed that colonial conquest and the Boer war were responsible for blacks being dispossessed and driven from their ancestral lands without compensation. It was the result of a deliberate policy since the 1913 Land Act. When the Afrikaners came to power in 1948, they created the homelands and the country accelerated population transfers that began in the 19th century.

It had been hoped that the new black majority South Africa would be actively involved in dismantling the wrongs of the past. But it did not have the means to act quickly. One of the key compromises between the ANC and the De Klerk government had been to agree not to alienate the white population, especially farmers. Agrarian reform, presented as a priority by the agriculture minister at the time, Derek Hanecom, turned out unsurprisingly to be better in intention than practice. There were three sections: the restitution of Land Rights Act (1994); tenure reform to ensure greater tenant security (Communal Property associations Act, 1996); and agrarian reform in the strict sense (Labour Tenants Act, 1996, and the Extension of Security Tenure Act, 1997).

The goal of redistribution was to allow the most underprivileged groups access to land. But the state, until recently the instrument of land confiscation, preferred to forsake its prerogatives and abstain from any authoritarian resolutions. It favoured market-assisted agrarian reform, based on freely made agreements by all parties. Black growers wishing to acquire land could do so either by launching themselves as entrepreneurs, if they could afford it, or by forming buyers' collectives, to take advantage of the 16,000 rand ($2,172) subsidy the government promised to each. Despite the initial inequity between the participants, the basic principle was freedom for both parties and respect for private property.

The reconstruction and development programme set out in 1994 foresaw the redistribution of 30% of agricultural land over five years. When it won power, the black majority government multiplied subsidies and allocations in the countryside, created mobile clinics, opened schools and improved access to drinking water (passing the bill on to consumers by privatising water distribution). But progress was slight. In June 2000, out of 65,000 restitution requests, only 6,250 were successful and only 1% of land had been redistributed (3). In eight years, 1,098,008 hectares were transferred, only 0.89% of the country's surface area.

After eight years 386,000 victims of forced transfer had benefited from restitution programmes. But it was often city-dwellers rather than landless peasants who received the allotment of 40,000 rand ($5,430). White farmers could claim up to 3m rand ($400) for each relinquished farm. In June 2000 the government reiterated its intention to transfer 15m hectares to black farmers over the next five Apartheid was responsible for the largest population movement and dispossession of the 20th century: between 1960 and 1980 more than 3.5 million blacks were evicted from their land and relegated to homelands or to townships surrounding the big cities. Stripped of land, blacks were no longer potential rivals for white farmers. They became a cheap labour pool for farming, mining and industry. When the African National Congress (ANC) came to power in 1994, it promised to change a landscape in which 60,000 white farmers held 87% of the fertile land and millions of blacks shared 13%. No one believed that colonial conquest and the Boer war were responsible for blacks being dispossessed and driven from their ancestral lands without compensation. It was the result of a deliberate policy since the 1913 Land Act. When the Afrikaners came to power in 1948, they created the homelands and the country accelerated population transfers that began in the 19th century.

It had been hoped that the new black majority South Africa would be actively involved in dismantling the wrongs of the past. But it did not have the means to act quickly. One of the key compromises between the ANC and the De Klerk government had been to agree not to alienate the white population, especially farmers. Agrarian reform, presented as a priority by the agriculture minister at the time, Derek Hanecom, turned out unsurprisingly to be better in intention than practice. There were three sections: the restitution of Land Rights Act (1994); tenure reform to ensure greater tenant security (Communal Property associations Act, 1996); and agrarian reform in the strict sense (Labour Tenants Act, 1996, and the Extension of Security Tenure Act, 1997).

The goal of redistribution was to allow the most underprivileged groups access to land. But the state, until recently the instrument of land confiscation, preferred to forsake its prerogatives and abstain from any authoritarian resolutions. It favoured market-assisted agrarian reform, based on freely made agreements by all parties. Black growers wishing to acquire land could do so either by launching themselves as entrepreneurs, if they could afford it, or by forming buyers' collectives, to take advantage of the 16,000 rand ($2,172) subsidy the government promised to each. Despite the initial inequity between the participants, the basic principle was freedom for both parties and respect for private property.

The reconstruction and development programme set out in 1994 foresaw the redistribution of 30% of agricultural land over five years. When it won power, the black majority government multiplied subsidies and allocations in the countryside, created mobile clinics, opened schools and improved access to drinking water (passing the bill on to consumers by privatising water distribution). But progress was slight. In June 2000, out of 65,000 restitution requests, only 6,250 were successful and only 1% of land had been redistributed (3). In eight years, 1,098,008 hectares were transferred, only 0.89% of the country's surface area.

After eight years 386,000 victims of forced transfer had benefited from restitution programmes. But it was often city-dwellers rather than landless peasants who received the allotment of 40,000 rand ($5,430). White farmers could claim up to 3m rand ($400) for each relinquished farm. In June 2000 the government reiterated its intention to transfer 15m hectares to black farmers over the next five


fate
How many other countries have bike-jacking as a common crime? How many other countries demand in-home security nearly everywhere?
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Post 22 Apr 2015, 12:49 pm

rickyp wrote:fate
True to some extent, but stripping the whites of their land and wealth has not resulted in widespread prosperity, has it

Is this an argument that apartheid was a good thing?


Need any more kerosene for that thing? Image
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Post 22 Apr 2015, 1:55 pm

how should i interpret this comment then?
Fate
True to some extent, but stripping the whites of their land and wealth has not resulted in widespread prosperity, has it?


After all, it was stripping blacks of their land that created all those rich white farmers...
But you seem to be aggrieved because the stolen property is being given back....
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Post 22 Apr 2015, 2:14 pm

rickyp wrote:how should i interpret this comment then?
Fate
True to some extent, but stripping the whites of their land and wealth has not resulted in widespread prosperity, has it?


After all, it was stripping blacks of their land that created all those rich white farmers...
But you seem to be aggrieved because the stolen property is being given back....


How should you interpret it?

I don't know--using your English language skills? Is that too much to ask?

The simple truth is the ruthlessness with which this was done created as much chaos and fiscal difficulty as the same process did (sans the racial component) when the Communists won in China.

As but one illustration: giving someone a farm does not impart to them the skills and knowledge of being a farmer. So, an extended process seems like it would have been less tumultuous. And, minus external pressure, that might have happened.
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Post 22 Apr 2015, 2:57 pm

So far as I can tell, all that's really happened in South Africa is that a new elite class of blacks has taken over where the whites left off and continued to exploit the black working classes for their own benefit. Ending apartheid was still the right thing to do of course, but it does appear that Mandela's legacy is being squandered.
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Post 23 Apr 2015, 8:18 am

sass
So far as I can tell, all that's really happened in South Africa is that a new elite class of blacks has taken over where the whites left off and continued to exploit the black working classes for their own ben
efit

They particularly exploit foreign workers from other parts of Africa, who are then demonized by SA blacks who are having it tough economically. (That's the violence referenced in the articles Fate was quoting. )
In many nations cheap foreign labor, legal and illegal, is abused and exploited and demonized. In some there is violence against these foreigners. Not just South Africa.
In many countries a small elite have a very large share of the wealth of the country and the great inequality creates social unrest and crime. Not just South Africa.
The end of apartheid didn't solve any of these problems for ever. But then democracy hasn't yet solved these problems in nations who have the most advanced democracies and modern economies either...
But that doesn't mean we stop trying or decide as I think Fate seems to be saying, that the effort wasn't and isn't worth making. .
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Post 23 Apr 2015, 8:42 am

rickyp wrote:The end of apartheid didn't solve any of these problems for ever. But then democracy hasn't yet solved these problems in nations who have the most advanced democracies and modern economies either...


I think you'll find South Africa trailing the pack of democratic states in most areas. It is corrupt to its core.

But that doesn't mean we stop trying or decide as I think Fate seems to be saying, that the effort wasn't and isn't worth making. .


You are a lying (edit) Image. Stop it. Whatever you "think," maybe you should try reading. If you're able.

Doctor Fate wrote:The simple truth is the ruthlessness with which this was done created as much chaos and fiscal difficulty as the same process did (sans the racial component) when the Communists won in China.

As but one illustration: giving someone a farm does not impart to them the skills and knowledge of being a farmer. So, an extended process seems like it would have been less tumultuous. And, minus external pressure, that might have happened.


Compare that with your vapid retelling:

. . . as I think Fate seems to be saying, that the effort wasn't and isn't worth making.


Why is it so difficult for you to be honest? Is it genetic or are you illiterate?
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Post 23 Apr 2015, 11:36 am

fate
The simple truth is the ruthlessness with which this was done created as much chaos and fiscal difficulty as the same process did (sans the racial component) when the Communists won in China


You talking about the ruthlessness of the apartheid expulsion of small black farmers from 1960 to 1980 ? That was remarkably similar to the Communist's seizing land in China... But no you aren't talking about that are you...

No. You're taking about the thieves having to give back their stolen property. Why do you have so much compassion for thieves?



.
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Post 23 Apr 2015, 12:55 pm

rickyp wrote:fate
The simple truth is the ruthlessness with which this was done created as much chaos and fiscal difficulty as the same process did (sans the racial component) when the Communists won in China


You talking about the ruthlessness of the apartheid expulsion of small black farmers from 1960 to 1980 ? That was remarkably similar to the Communist's seizing land in China... But no you aren't talking about that are you...

No. You're taking about the thieves having to give back their stolen property. Why do you have so much compassion for thieves?



.


There are dishonest people in the world, there are lying scum, then, somewhere far beneath them, there is you.

But, since I'm a fair-minded guy, why don't we wager $5000 that I've not shown "compassion" for the thieves?

Unless you want to admit being the hind end of a donkey.
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Post 24 Apr 2015, 2:11 pm

Doctor Fate wrote:However, the transition was abrupt, brought about by foreign disinvestment, and the results have not been too encouraging.

The economic problems in South Africa always existed for the vast majority of people. It was only that Apartheid provided most of the wealth to whites.


True to some extent, but stripping the whites of their land and wealth has not resulted in widespread prosperity, has it?


Whites weren't stripped of their land in South Africa, they were given title to it. You must be thinking about Zimbabwe.

From wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inequality_in_post-apartheid_South_Africa

In 1994, the newly elected African National Congress began to develop a program of land reform. This includes three primary means of reform: redistribution, restitution, and land tenure reform.[13] Redistribution aims to transfer white-owned commercial farms to black Africans.[13] Restitution involves giving compensation to land lost to whites due to apartheid, racism, and discrimination.[13] Land tenure reform strives to provide more secure access to land.[13] Several laws have been enacted to facilitate redistribution, restitution, and land tenure reform. Section 25 of the new South African Constitution, adopted in 1994, promised land reform to blacks in exchange for giving property titles to whites who acquired the property under prior regimes.[18] But while the titles were given out, the land reform was never implemented [18] The Provision of Certain Land of Settlement Act of 1996 designates land for settlement purposes and ensures financial assistance to those seeking to acquire land.[13] The Restitution of Land Rights Act of 1994 guided the implementation of restitution and gave it a legal basis.[13] The Extension of Security of Tenure Act of 1996 helps rural populations obtain stronger rights to their land and regulates the relationships between owners of rural land and those living on it.[13] So far, these land-reform measures have been semi-effective. By 1998, over 250,000 black South Africans received land as a result of the Land Redistribution Programme.[13] Very few restitution claims have been resolved.[13] In the five years after the land reform programs were instituted, only 1% of land changed hands, despite the African National Congress’s goal of 30%.[13]


As of 2006 about 70% of the land in South Africa was still owned by whites.

What's going on in South Africa right now is terrible, and the country has big problems, but are you suggesting that it would be better if Apartheid hadn't ended? If not, then what are you saying?
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Post 24 Apr 2015, 3:27 pm

geojanes wrote:
Doctor Fate wrote:However, the transition was abrupt, brought about by foreign disinvestment, and the results have not been too encouraging.

The economic problems in South Africa always existed for the vast majority of people. It was only that Apartheid provided most of the wealth to whites.


True to some extent, but stripping the whites of their land and wealth has not resulted in widespread prosperity, has it?


Whites weren't stripped of their land in South Africa, they were given title to it. You must be thinking about Zimbabwe.
Absolutely correct. Wealth has not really transferred, and certainly there has not been any real measure of "stripping the whites of their land". Either DF is confused about the country he's talking about, or he is misinformed.

Also, South Africa is seeing increased foreign investment, as it retains its position as top target for FDI in the continent. http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/01/ ... YF20140128

What's going on in South Africa right now is terrible, and the country has big problems, but are you suggesting that it would be better if Apartheid hadn't ended? If not, then what are you saying?
I am confused as well. South Africa is better for most people there than it was 30 years ago. It's worse for some. Some have left for other places. And people have migrated to South Africa from neighbouring countries to seek a better life. I am not a fan of the way that the ANC has become a power-centre with a built in majority vote (for now) - I would rather that it had dissolved into its constituent parts after the Mandela transtional years (which were fairly quick, but nowhere near as abrupt as the changes in some Eastern European countries post-1989).

Crime is a big issue. So is the plight of the poor whites (the rich whites are pretty fine comparitively). But I don't recall anyone calling it a "workers paradise". The thread is based upon a straw man, it appears DF is confusing the situation with that of Zimbabwe which may well mean the underlying assumptions for his case are faulty, and I don't see what the case really is here:

As you ask, geo, I also wonder - is DF saying it was better under Apartheid? Or what?