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Adjutant
 
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Post 04 Mar 2015, 12:02 am

I don't understand the political calculus in doing it. First, it was an insult to President Obama. I don't think a foreign head of state should come into Congress and criticize US foreign policy and have congressman clapping about it. Outrageous, really. Hopefully, Israeli voters kick him out of office because Netanyahu's aligning himself with Republicans has done damage. There should be no partisanship in the relationship between the US and Israel, but Netanyahu has become involved in US partisan politics. And if he did it to help his political chances by showing how tough he is to Israel conservatives back home...I don't even know what to say about that.

Here is an article on the speech.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_ ... ats.2.html
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Post 04 Mar 2015, 12:55 am

President Reuven Rivlin is the head of state, Bibi is head of government.

But, yes, it was all about politicking.
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Adjutant
 
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Post 04 Mar 2015, 1:10 am

You Parliamentarian countries just cannot get rid of your king (president), can you?
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Post 04 Mar 2015, 1:25 am

No, we mature democracies realised that unifying HoG with HoS is what makes a monarchy. We keep the royals because their power has been largely neutralised.
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Post 04 Mar 2015, 7:25 am

It was a brilliant speech ... I watched it live which I highly recommend for any important speech because the critiques never do them justice and we all end up more cynical.

I think Netanyahu did Obama a big favor because he enables Obama to take a harder line. Any negotiator is benefited by having a brick wall or bad cop, which in this case is Netanyahu / Republican Congress.
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Post 04 Mar 2015, 10:22 am

Getting involved in internal US politics is a major blunder by Netanyahu I think. The former head of Mossad recently spoke out about this:

“As someone who has served Israel in various security capacities for 45 years, including during the country’s most difficult hours, I feel that we are now at a critical point regarding our existence and our security.

“Our standing in the world is not brilliant right now. The question of Israel’s legitimacy is up for debate. We should not erode our relations with our most important friend. Certainly not in public, certainly not by becoming involved in its domestic politics. This is not proper behaviour for a prime minister.”

...

“An Israeli prime minister who clashes with the US administration has to ask himself what the risks are. On the matter of settlements, there is no difference between the two [US] parties. And even so, they provide us with a veto umbrella. In a situation of a confrontation, this umbrella is liable to vanish, and within a short time, Israel could find itself facing international sanctions.

“The risks of such a clash are intolerable. We are already today paying a high price. Some of them I know and cannot elaborate.

“I would not have confronted the United States and its president. Netanyahu may get applause in Congress, but all the power is in the White House. What will Netanyahu gain by addressing Congress? I just don’t understand it. Is his goal to get a standing ovation? This trip to Washington is doomed to failure.”


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/f ... gan-israel
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Post 04 Mar 2015, 11:08 am

ray
I think Netanyahu did Obama a big favor because he enables Obama to take a harder line. Any negotiator is benefited by having a brick wall or bad cop, which in this case is Netanyahu / Republican Congress


Israel doesn't really matter in the negotiations. Netanyahu's claims aren't supported by even his own intelligence organizations. And the negotiations will be based on reality not netanyahu's exagerations.

All that matter is how this helps or hurts in the Israelis elections... We'll know that fairly soon.
Most of the Israelis media seems to have lined up on their respective sides condemning or fawning as predetermined by their political leaning. Last poll i saw the election result looked to be razor thin...
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Post 04 Mar 2015, 12:42 pm

You guys are seeing it through a political lens, which is the nature of things when you disagree with someone's politics. Of course you should look at anything a politician does through that lens to an extent.

But you can also look at it through a policy lens, and he laid out the facts as he sees them:

1. The Iranian regime is the world's leading sponsor of terrorism.
2. They have extended their influence to Lebanon, Gaza, Iraq, Yemen, and Syria.
3. They are doing everything they can to build nuclear weapons.
4. If they do build nuclear weapons, they will destabilize the Middle East.
5. They have expressed the desire to annihilate Israel.
6. Other Middle Eastern powers will try to build nukes including SA, Turkey, etc.
7. If Obama cuts a deal then their economy will improve.
8. Inspections are insufficient.
9. If their economy improves the chances of regime change go down, not up.
10 The deal Obama is negotiating will enable them to break out sooner, rather than later.

Yes, the timing with the Israeli election is unfortunate, but the driver of the timing is that Obama is trying to cut a deal with Iran and exclude Congress from the process. Netanyahu who openly said very positive things about Obama is trying to prevent the end run.
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Post 04 Mar 2015, 2:12 pm

But you can also look at it through a policy lens, and he laid out the facts as he sees them:
But do his facts actually reflect reaity? And aren't the six nations negotiating with Iran relying on their own set of facts rather than Netanyahu's "facts".


1. The Iranian regime is the world's leading sponsor of terrorism.
[even though Iran is a leading sponsor of the Shiite militias fighting ISIS in Iraq. Even though Hezbollah is now in Syria fighting Assad.

2. They have extended their influence to Lebanon, Gaza, Iraq, Yemen, and Syria.
Part of this is in large part to the vacuum created by the US adventure in Iraq. An adventure that Netanyahui was a major cheerleader for, and who predicted would lead to stability in the Middle East.

3. They are doing everything they can to build nuclear weapons.
Except that the Mossad disagrees with him. And if the Mossad disagrees with him....
.

4. If they do build nuclear weapons, they will destabilize the Middle East.
Because its so stable now, after the Iraq adventure.
.

5. They have expressed the desire to annihilate Israel.
Okay. Although his Mossad do not share the view that Irans' regime is a suicidal regime. Just that some of them are big talkers.


6. Other Middle Eastern powers will try to build nukes including SA, Turkey, etc.
No one other than Israel actually has pursued nuclear weapons. Everyone else has played by the non-proliferation rules... Even, so far, Iran. And according to Netanhayu Iran has been a year away from nuclear weapons for 25 years now.


7. If Obama cuts a deal then their economy will improve.
Because his real goal is to drive irans economy into the ground?


8. Inspections are insufficient.
They've worked elsewhere. Say Russia. On the other hand not having inspections would do what? And with no deal thats what you've got
.

9. If their economy improves the chances of regime change go down, not up.
The goal of the negotiations is a nuclear weapons free Iran. Not regime change.


10 The deal Obama is negotiating will enable them to break out sooner, rather than later.
And no deal would push them to move immediately
.
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Post 05 Mar 2015, 12:59 am

Ray Jay wrote:You guys are seeing it through a political lens, which is the nature of things when you disagree with someone's politics. Of course you should look at anything a politician does through that lens to an extent.
Well, he is a politician going into a domestic election wanting to reverse a decline in popularity, invited by a politician wanting to make a point against his President, speaking to a load of politicians...

But you can also look at it through a policy lens, and he laid out the facts as he sees them:

1. The Iranian regime is the world's leading sponsor of terrorism.
2. They have extended their influence to Lebanon, Gaza, Iraq, Yemen, and Syria.
3. They are doing everything they can to build nuclear weapons.
4. If they do build nuclear weapons, they will destabilize the Middle East.
5. They have expressed the desire to annihilate Israel.
6. Other Middle Eastern powers will try to build nukes including SA, Turkey, etc.
7. If Obama cuts a deal then their economy will improve.
8. Inspections are insufficient.
9. If their economy improves the chances of regime change go down, not up.
10 The deal Obama is negotiating will enable them to break out sooner, rather than later.
I am not convinced that all of these are facts. Some look like opinions and suppositions to me.

Yes, the timing with the Israeli election is unfortunate, but the driver of the timing is that Obama is trying to cut a deal with Iran and exclude Congress from the process. Netanyahu who openly said very positive things about Obama is trying to prevent the end run.
That looks like political statement to me. Congress do not "make" foreign policy. They have to ratify deals, but are not there to negotiate them.

And what action did Netanyahu advocate? What policy actions did he suggest the US take, other than not pursuing a deal?

And no, the timing is very much significant. Talking of timing, how long has Netenyahu been saying that Iran is only a few years from having nukes? And what did Mossad think was the case in reality?
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Post 05 Mar 2015, 4:03 am

No, we mature democracies realised that unifying HoG with HoS is what makes a monarchy. We keep the royals because their power has been largely neutralised.


Oh, God, let's not get into that debate, again. :laugh:

But if no one minds my weighing in, while I detest President Obama's antics (and sometimes his lack thereof) it has long since been recognized in the United States that the executive branch is responsible for foreign affairs, the presidency being the head of state (ceremonially as well as "actively"). If I were judging this from a constitutional perspective, I would have to agree that this isn't Boehner's bailiwick.
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Post 05 Mar 2015, 8:01 am

The "instant polls" in Israel indicate Netanyahu was given a slight boost from his speech.
Perhaps just enough to ensure re-election as PM.
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Post 05 Mar 2015, 8:47 am

From Wikipedia:

Under the 1994 Agreed Framework, the U.S. government agreed to facilitate the supply of two light water reactors to North Korea in exchange for North Korean disarmament.[24][25] Such reactors are considered "more proliferation-resistant than North Korea's graphite-moderated reactors",[26] but not "proliferation proof".[27] Implementation of the Agreed Framework floundered, and in 2002 the Agreed Framework fell apart, with each side blaming the other for its failure. By 2002, Pakistan had admitted that North Korea had gained access to Pakistan's nuclear technology in the late 1990s.[28] Based on evidence from Pakistan, Libya, and multiple confessions from North Korea itself, the United States accused North Korea of non-compliance and halted oil shipments; North Korea later claimed its public confession of guilt had been deliberately misconstrued. By the end of 2002, the Agreed Framework was officially dead.

In 2003, North Korea again announced its withdrawal from the Nuclear Proliferation Treaty.[23] In 2005, It admitted to having nuclear weapons but vowed to close the nuclear program.[29][30]

On March 17, 2007, North Korea told delegates at international nuclear talks that it is preparing to shut down its main nuclear facility. The agreement was reached following a series of six-party talks, involving North Korea, South Korea, China, Russia, Japan, and the United States begun in 2003. According to the agreement, a list of its nuclear programs will be submitted and the nuclear facility will be disabled in exchange for fuel aid and normalization talks with the United States and Japan.[31] This was delayed from April due to a dispute with the United States over Banco Delta Asia, but on July 14, International Atomic Energy Agency inspectors confirmed the shutdown of North Korea's Yongbyon nuclear reactor and consequently North Korea began to receive aid.[32] This agreement fell apart in 2009, following a North Korean missile test.

In February 2012, North Korea announced that it would suspend uranium enrichment at the Yongbyon Nuclear Scientific Research Center and not conduct any further tests of nuclear weapons while productive negotiations involving the United States continue. This agreement included a moratorium on long-range missiles tests. Additionally, North Korea agreed to allow IAEA inspectors to monitor operations at Yongbyon. The United States reaffirmed that it had no hostile intent toward the DPRK and was prepared to improve bilateral relationships, and agreed to ship humanitarian food aid to North Korea.[33][34][35] The United States called the move "important, if limited", but said it would proceed cautiously and that talks would resume only after North Korea made steps toward fulfilling its promise.[33] However, after North Korea conducted a long-range missile test in April 2012, the United States decided not to proceed with the food aid.[
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Post 05 Mar 2015, 8:59 am

Ricky:
Even though Hezbollah is now in Syria fighting Assad.


Really? That contradicts every news source that I've read over the last several years. Iran - Syria - Hezbollah are all allies. You are delusional.

Ricky:
2. They have extended their influence to Lebanon, Gaza, Iraq, Yemen, and Syria.


Part of this is in large part to the vacuum created by the US adventure in Iraq. An adventure that Netanyahui was a major cheerleader for, and who predicted would lead to stability in the Middle East.


The name is Netanyahu.

Yes, the US made a catastrophic mistake as it relates to Iraq. Since we don't have a time machine, using that as an excuse to not follow the right course of action is pointless.

Yes, Netanyahu gave poor advice. The reality is that Bush / Cheney / Rumsfeld made the decision. Giving poor advice on one occasion does not disqualify political leaders, or there wouldn't be any. It doesn't disqualify him from having an opinion now, and it doesn't disqualify him from voicing his opinion. After all, our current and former Secretaries of State had the same view. And they voted. So what is your point?

Ricky:
8. Inspections are insufficient.

They've worked elsewhere. Say Russia. On the other hand not having inspections would do what? And with no deal thats what you've got


See above post on North Korea.
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Post 05 Mar 2015, 9:09 am

Danivon:
Congress do not "make" foreign policy. They have to ratify deals, but are not there to negotiate them.


There is nothing in the Constitution that precludes the Speaker of the House from inviting a foreign PM to speak before Congress. It is a breach of protocol, but so what given the stakes.

From Wikipedia:
Syria's international relations improved for a period. Diplomatic relations with Iraq were restored in 2006, after nearly a quarter century. In March 2007, dialogue between Syria and the European Union was relaunched. The following month saw US House of Representatives Speaker Nancy Pelosi meet President Assad in Damascus, although President Bush objected.


I don't recall your outrage. In that case the new Speaker of the House was meeting with a Foreign leader who was considered an enemy by the White House.