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Post 08 Jan 2015, 1:45 pm

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/j ... now-so-far

Horrific. But retaliation and fear are the reactions they wanted.
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Post 08 Jan 2015, 2:53 pm

I saw an interview in 2011 where Charlie Hebdo said a firebombing of his office was "just one man attacking another man". But I am afraid that is just not true. One culture is dictating that certain aspects of its culture / religion are off-limits to criticism and violations of that taboo will be met with violence. Even as we think the cartoons are insensitive to Muslims, we are appalled at the violent response.
So I don't know...I will try to keep in mind that this was the work of only a few men, perhaps Muslims who frown on such violence should start reflecting on why their culture keeps producing such men. The western ideal of freedom of expression is coming into conflict with sacred Muslim beliefs. They (meaning a significant number of Muslims )are demanding that we give in and not allow certain expression antithetical to Islam. What is our response?
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Post 08 Jan 2015, 4:10 pm

I don't think there is one 'best' response. There are a range of responses that are apt. The real key is to avoid the responses that play into the hands of extremists.

So we should not 'give in' on free expression when it is legal. And we should not take revenge or restrict the rights of Muslims at large. I think the Niqab ban in France is a bad idea, for example, and the kind of thing that just annoy ordinary people.

One thing I note, all French political parties are taking part in vigils and rallies, except one. The Front National, which is the far right party of the Le Pens, and which is anti-immigrant, anti-Islam, anti-EU (and has form for being antisemitic and a bit holocaust denial-y). Basically, another bunch of extremists.
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Post 08 Jan 2015, 5:16 pm

What response would you implement? (If you were the French Premier)
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Post 09 Jan 2015, 12:56 am

bbauska wrote:What response would you implement? (If you were the French Premier)
Here's the thing. I don't see what legislation would do, and in terms of action the main effort is and should be to arrest the perpetrators and let justice apply.

Generally I would have not implemented the ban on niqabs, but undoing it right now would probably be poor timing.

What would you do?
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Post 09 Jan 2015, 7:25 am

freeman3
The western ideal of freedom of expression is coming into conflict with sacred Muslim beliefs. They (meaning a significant number of Muslims )are demanding that we give in and not allow certain expression antithetical to Islam
.

The problem is that the Koran and the teaching s of the Prophet do not actually support the notion of blasphemy....

But in fact, the Koran prescribes no punishment for blasphemy. Like so many of the most fanatical and violent aspects of Islamic terrorism today, the idea that Islam requires that insults against the prophet Muhammad be met with violence is a creation of politicians and clerics to serve a political agenda.
One holy book is deeply concerned with blasphemy: the Bible. In the Old Testament, blasphemy and blasphemers are condemned and prescribed harsh punishment. The best-known passage on this is Leviticus 24:16 : “Anyone who blasphemes the name of the Lord is to be put to death. The entire assembly must stone them. Whether foreigner or native-born, when they blaspheme the Name they are to be put to death.”
By contrast, the word blasphemy appears nowhere in the Koran. (Nor, incidentally, does the Koran anywhere forbid creating images of Muhammad, though there are commentaries and traditions — “hadith” — that do, to guard against idol worship.) Islamic scholar Maulana Wahiduddin Khan has pointed out that “there are more than 200 verses in the Koran, which reveal that the contemporaries of the prophets repeatedly perpetrated the same act, which is now called ‘blasphemy or abuse of the Prophet’ . . . but nowhere does the Koran prescribe the punishment of lashes, or death, or any other physical punishment.” On several occasions, Muhammad treated people who ridiculed him and his teachings with understanding and kindness. “In Islam,” Khan says, “blasphemy is a subject of intellectual discussion rather than a subject of physical punishment.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ ... story.html
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Post 09 Jan 2015, 7:26 am

bbauska
What response would you implement? (If you were the French Premier)


Keep calm and carry on.
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Post 09 Jan 2015, 10:29 am

danivon wrote:
bbauska wrote:What response would you implement? (If you were the French Premier)
Here's the thing. I don't see what legislation would do, and in terms of action the main effort is and should be to arrest the perpetrators and let justice apply.

Generally I would have not implemented the ban on niqabs, but undoing it right now would probably be poor timing.

What would you do?


Treat everyone the same; regardless of race, creed, religion, sex, national origin. If you don't want people wearing Hijabs, yamakas or crucifixes in public, then make a rule and enforce it. If people need to not have religious clothing and symbols in public, then equally enforce it.

If everyone needs to show their face for drivers license, then make the rule and equally enforce it.

I know I am much more for the death penalty than you are, but these terrorists certainly would have deserved more than life in prison in my opinion. (Although Devil's Island...)
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Post 09 Jan 2015, 12:20 pm

bbauska wrote:Treat everyone the same; regardless of race, creed, religion, sex, national origin. If you don't want people wearing Hijabs, yamakas or crucifixes in public, then make a rule and enforce it. If people need to not have religious clothing and symbols in public, then equally enforce it.
Ok, I get your OCD on applying the laws that there are, but what rules would you prefer to be there to enforce? Personally I would say let people wear what they want in public as much as possible.

The French ban not only covers niqabs and balaclavas, but also things like wearing a cartoon character full costume. That is clearly 'equal', but is it freedom?

And is it not 'freedom' that we wish to defend against the extremist religionists (and other extremists)?

If everyone needs to show their face for drivers license, then make the rule and equally enforce it.
That is not what the French niqab law is about.

I know I am much more for the death penalty than you are, but these terrorists certainly would have deserved more than life in prison in my opinion. (Although Devil's Island...)
Well, it appears the options are already moot for two of them. France does not have the death penalty any more (abolished in 1981), but either way my preference is always for a trial of criminal suspects to give a fair verdict on their guilt (or it may turn out innocence).
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Post 09 Jan 2015, 12:54 pm

Nice jab, attributing a psychosis to me. Not beneficial, but whatever...

If it is the law, then let the people try to remove the law via representative government. Vote for the representatives that you think will change the laws the way you want them. To say that people have the "freedom" to do X, and if they don't we are being like the religious extremists is hyperbole.

As for the drivers license comment, I was expanding the scope of what you were typing about.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/2011/stephenbrown/canadas-ringing-no-to-the-niqab/

A rather progressive nation, Canada; Eh? (Has this policy been removed?)

As for the death penalty, just shoring that I wanted greater penalty for terrorists than you do.
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Post 09 Jan 2015, 1:04 pm

bbauska wrote:Nice jab, attributing a psychosis to me. Not beneficial, but whatever...

If it is the law, then let the people try to remove the law via representative government. Vote for the representatives that you think will change the laws the way you want them. To say that people have the "freedom" to do X, and if they don't we are being like the religious extremists is hyperbole.
Hmm. No, I'm not saying that you are being 'like' the religious extremists if you support removing freedoms in response to extremist terrorism. I am saying that we need to be aware that one of the things that extremists (of all kinds) dislike is the freedoms of everyone else to live their as they wish.

The point of my 'jab' was that I had answered your question, but you had not really answered mine. I know that you want to 'equally' enforce the laws. It's your standby answer to anything relating to law enforcement.

The real question is what policy do you think should be in place. What laws do you want to be applied equally. Not just what the majority decide, because that's not your view, but that of others. What would you decide, if you had a vote and it was the casting one?

As for the drivers license comment, I was expanding the scope of what you were typing about.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/2011/stephenbrown/canadas-ringing-no-to-the-niqab/

A rather progressive nation, Canada; Eh? (Has this policy been removed?)
No idea, I am not a Canadian and have only spent a few hours there in 1997. It's not France, where they have a very different ban in place, and where the events of this week actually took place.

As for the death penalty, just shoring that I wanted greater penalty for terrorists than you do.
"Nice jab" But that is if you believe death is a greater penalty than life in prison. Some people - especially perhaps these guys who did die - would prefer to die and hope to be seen as martyrs than to have to live with what they have done for a long time. Meh.
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Post 09 Jan 2015, 1:22 pm

No, the jab from you was the OCD comment.
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Post 09 Jan 2015, 1:30 pm

Personally, I don't care what the French laws are. I have not been there myself either. I do believe that restrictions against clothing, signs, medallions et.al. due to religious reasons is a bit silly.

Restricting the head/face coverings on an ID is a different situation, however. ID is just that, IDENTIFICATION! If a person cannot be identified by the picture on the ID, that what good is that ID? The ID picture should clearly show face and hair. Otherwise, it is useless. Using that ID without your face showing is a bit self defeating as well. People should have the choice to wear coverings and deal with the difficulties that may present.
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Post 09 Jan 2015, 1:32 pm

I don't get your point, Ricky. Clearly, there are a large number of Muslims who feel that blasphemy must be punished. Telling them to re-read the Koran...probably isn't going to help.
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Post 09 Jan 2015, 2:32 pm

For what it's worth I have learned that many Jews in France are afraid to wear the Star of David around their necks or even yarmulkes on their heads. In addition, people of all stripes are afraid to write, draw, say, etc. what they truly feel because of potential backlash.

It's one thing to say that something is legal; it's another to enforce a culture of freedom of expression and freedom of religion. Another way of saying this is that you can have the best laws on the books, and the best intentions, but if your culture moves so that people are afraid to exercise their constitutional rights, you don't really have those freedoms.