Now that the fireworks are currently over...

Who was at fault for starting this little conflict?

Hamas. But Israel needs to do a better job of minimizing civilian casualties. No sovereign state should have to tolerate the lobbing of missiles into its territory, but more Hamas casualties, less civilians.

freeman3 wrote:Hamas. But Israel needs to do a better job of minimizing civilian casualties. No sovereign state should have to tolerate the lobbing of missiles into its territory, but more Hamas casualties, less civilians.

There have been some interesting articles on Hamas doctoring the civilian casualty numbers and the UN accepting Hamas's figures both in this conflict and the previous ones. The NYT and Foreign Affairs have written that based on the % of casualties that were male and between the ages of 18 and 40 it is likely that the civilian casualty % is much lower than is being reported. The suggestion is that it is more 50/50 than the 80/20 that is being reported in the media.

I've certainly had some grief over civilian casualties. I found myself crying when reading an article in the NYT at Starbucks about 3 or 4 Palestinian boys who were mistakenly killed on the beach. (Somehow print hits you more than on-line.) That being said I think the notion that Israel has the capability to stop the tunnels, stop the rockets, and fully limit civilian casualties does not reflect the operational reality of war in this dense area where Hamas uses civilians as shields, stores rockets in schools and mosques, and has tunnels that originate from people's houses. The Israelis don't always have the luxury of not hurting civilians during these battles.

It's a bit surreal having the Israelis telephone and text Palestinians to evacuate buildings, and then send warnings via missiles only to have Hamas tell those Palestinians to stay and be martyrs. Has any modern army ever tried to reduce casualties in that way? Without experiencing the situation on the ground I think that most of us cannot comprehend the complexity that Israel is dealing with to avoid civilian casualties. It's easy for westerners to wag their finger, and I certainly share that impulse of the tragedy of the true civilian casualties, but I wonder whether we truly get what it is like when you are a commander on the group being fired on. How many Israeli soldiers died because they were trying to reduce civilian casualties?

I don't think its that clear cut Freeman.
Despite the bombing, Hamas an the strategy of rocketing israel remain popular in Gaza.
That has to say something about the nature of the occupation of the West Bank, and the blockade of Gaza. That the Gazans endure what they do, and still support Hamas indicates their desperation.

Gideon Levy puts it this way:

Israeli journalist Gideon Levy argues that Middle East peace will never come until the Israeli government drops its rejection of basic Palestinian rights. "Sure Israel wants peace, Israel just doesn’t want a just peace," Levy says. "It is all about justice. You look backward and you ask yourself in which stage, in which moment, was Israel willing to give up the occupation? Give me one example in which there was a genuine readiness to put an end to the occupation. It was never there. It was all about gaining time and maintaining the status quo — namely the West Bank occupied, Gaza under siege, peaceful life in Israel. … If you want the ultimate proof for it, it’s the [West Bank] settlements. Israel never stopped building settlements, and [in doing so] says to the Palestinians and the world, [we] have no intention to give up this piece of land." Levy also discusses why he has received threats after calling on Israeli Air Force pilots to refuse to bomb Gaza, and why he sees a potential Palestinian effort to take Israel to the International Criminal Court as a positive step.

http://www.democracynow.org/2014/7/22/i ... _netanyahu

Hamas may be a perverse organization willing to generate the deaths of children in order to win a propoganda war. But the situation for Palestinians is so bad, that the majority buy into Hamas tactics, because other wise they have to accept what the Israelis are willing to leave them. In their eyes its not much.
I think parallels can be drawn between the Israek/ Palestinian situation and the conquering of North America from the indigenous. In the end, a very unequal contest saw the natives accept theit fate.
However the Indians were on their own, and Palestinians have an outside world to appeal towards... They may not settle for Israels demands for years....
Should they have to? Is it wrong for Palestinians to aspire to more than being an occupied rump and a blockaded hell hole?
What weapons do they have to fight the occupation and the blockade with that will have genuine effect? I grant that the rocketing amounts to nothing more than a bloody symbol and to me seems worthless mounted against the deaths of so many. Yet Palestinians seem to think otherwise.

How is Gaza occupied? All Israeli forces have been out (before conflict, and now that is appears to be over).

bbauska wrote:How is Gaza occupied? All Israeli forces have been out (before conflict, and now that is appears to be over).

I'm not sure of the exact definition of "occupied", but the unfortunate reality is that Palestinians have been basically herded into a dense and overcrowded slum. It's pretty similar to the ghettos that Jews were forced into during WWII in Europe.

There has been so much revenge begetting revenge and more revenge between the Israelis and Palestinians that it's hard to point fingers at only one side. But as an American Jew whose ancestors emigrated to this country for a better life, partly to escape persecution, it's really sad for me to see Israel turning around and persecuting some other group.

theshrizzz wrote:

bbauska wrote:How is Gaza occupied? All Israeli forces have been out (before conflict, and now that is appears to be over).

I'm not sure of the exact definition of "occupied", but the unfortunate reality is that Palestinians have been basically herded into a dense and overcrowded slum. It's pretty similar to the ghettos that Jews were forced into during WWII in Europe.

Israel has removed (apart from the duration of invasions like this one) troops from the interior of Gaza. However, it still polices the Gazan borders with itself and Egypt (and it has to be wondered how they allow tunnels to develop), and has set up a coastal blockade. Airspace is controlled by Israel. People and materials cannot get in or out with any real ease. This was the case before the Hamas takeover - in fact, it probably helped Hamas to carry it out because Fatah was unable to assist their people there.

There has been so much revenge begetting revenge and more revenge between the Israelis and Palestinians that it's hard to point fingers at only one side. But as an American Jew whose ancestors emigrated to this country for a better life, partly to escape persecution, it's really sad for me to see Israel turning around and persecuting some other group.

I believe most Israelis do not agree that they are persecuting Arabs. But there are significant political figures who are proposing just that and appear to be popular.

danivon wrote:I believe most Israelis do not agree that they are persecuting Arabs. But there are significant political figures who are proposing just that and appear to be popular.

The average Israeli, sure, I agree with you. I think that the majority of the people, both Israelis and Palestinians, do want peace. But it's the extremists on either side that are keeping any solution from being reached.

The assassination of Yitzhak Rabin is a perfect example.

Here is an article that gives possible explanations as to why the civilian casualties are so high.http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/j ... ng-experts
This article about the casualties seems well-balanced.
http://www.vox.com/2014/7/30/5937119/pa ... aza-israel

When you start talking about 300 dead Palestinian children...I think Israel needs to reassess its tactics.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/0 ... 51753.html

The history that le monde put together in this video really illustrates the plight of the Gazans in particular. But also illustrates why Palestinians on the West Bank are also considered occupied .I can't find its original source so apologies to those of you who will have to visit Huffington Post to get to it.

bbauska

How is Gaza occupied? All Israeli forces have been out (before conflict, and now that is appears to be over).

The United Nations Security Council and the International Court of Justice both describe the West Bank and Golan Heights as "occupied territory" under international law, However Israel's government calls all of them "disputed" rather than "occupied",[1] Israel's government also argues that since the Gaza disengagement of 2005, it does not militarily occupy the Gaza strip, a statement rejected by the United Nations Human Rights Council and Human Rights Watch because Israel continues to maintain control of its airspace, waters, and borders.[

If you consider how Israel attempts to control Palestinian movement in Gaza and the West Bank ... including the use of resources like water .... any semantic arguement about "occupied" or "disputed"
seems frivolous.
How long would any people endure the conditions placed upon the Palestinians before lashing out?
I can't see how the latest conflict has accomplished anything that will last.

Was not trying to be semantic. Was asking a question. I think ensuring your border is secure is important, and prohibiting Gazans from entering Israel is a right. It is not a right for Gazans to be allowed into Israel. As for water... Perhaps they should produce their own. They want their own country, after all.

How do you feel about the joint blockade from Egypt and Israel, and can you explain why rockets are only fired at Israel?

Do you think the Gazans are within their rights to fire rockets at Israel because the "feel" occupied?

theshrizzz wrote:

bbauska wrote:How is Gaza occupied? All Israeli forces have been out (before conflict, and now that is appears to be over).

I'm not sure of the exact definition of "occupied", but the unfortunate reality is that Palestinians have been basically herded into a dense and overcrowded slum. It's pretty similar to the ghettos that Jews were forced into during WWII in Europe.

I'm guessing you've been reading a lot of propaganda on the internet, or perhaps you are at a University.

How and when were the Palestinians "herded" into Gaza? You need to back up that with some facts. The imagery you provide doesn't match what actually happened.

No, it is not pretty similar to the ghettos during WWII in Europe. The density is way different (look it up; I've posted it in the past). Also, the Israelis provide food, electricity, and water to Gaza. I think you need to reread the story of the European ghettos to understand how outrageous your statement is. It is offensive in the extreme to those of us who have relatives who died in the ghettos.

There is also a huge historical difference. The ghettos were occupied by completely innocent people. There was no self-defense motive for the Germans and other Europeans to herd Jews into ghettos. The tragedy of Gaza is way different than that.

Ricky, imagine what would happen if Israel did not occupy the West Bank and control Gaza? What would be the result? Based on the past 66 years a large increase in terrorist attacks against Israelis would happen. So some sort of Israeli control of the West Bank and Gaza is necessary for Israel 's security. Can the occupation be heavy-handed? Sure. Are all of the measures taken by Israel really necessary for its security? Probably not . Should Israel do more to stop settlements in the West Bank? Yes. But complaining about an occupation as being unjust when the alternative would be a vast increase in terrorism seems one-sided to me.

bbauska

Perhaps they should produce their own

How does one "produce" water?
It is a natural resource... Its either there or its not...
but if you actually want to try and understand the problem with water in the Palestinian territories
here:

Water supply and sanitation in the Palestinian territories are characterized by severe water shortage and are highly influenced by the Israeli occupation. The water resources of Palestine are fully controlled by Israel and the division of groundwater is subject to provisions in the Oslo II Accord.
Generally, the water quality is considerably worse in the Gaza strip when compared to the West Bank. About a third to half of the delivered water in the Palestinian territories is lost in the distribution network. The lasting blockade of the Gaza Strip and the Gaza War have caused severe damage to the infrastructure in the Gaza Strip.[8][9] Concerning wastewater, the existing treatment plants do not have the capacity to treat all of the produced wastewater, causing severe water pollution.[7] The development of the sector highly depends on external financing.[5

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_supp ... erritories

or http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinio ... 46684.html

bbauska

Do you think the Gazans are within their rights to fire rockets at Israel because the "feel" occupied?

Were the indigenous people of North America within their rights to resist the White Man?
Are the Kurds within their rights to resist the occupation of Mosul by Isis?
Were Iraqis within their rights to resist the occupation of Iraq by the US?
Was the french resistance in WWII within its rights when it sabotaged and assassinated German officers?
Was Irgun within its rights when it bomberd the JKing David Hotel?

I expect your view of the above varies according to your personal perspective...
I don't know personnally if Gazans are "within their rights". but I can understand why their constant frustrations find them supporting the rocketing... Can you?

Danivon:

However, it still polices the Gazan borders with itself and Egypt (and it has to be wondered how they allow tunnels to develop)

What exactly are you wondering about? You make it sound like an Israeli / Egypt conspiracy. The Gazans have developed huge skills in building tunnels. They perfected their skill trying to smuggle goods, people, and weapons in from Egypt, and then applied their knowledge to wage terrorist attacks on Israel. These tunnels start from enclosed area and go down thousands of feet. They are build with concrete and have computerized levers. They have electricity.

The Israelis knew that the Gazans were building tunnels, but they had no idea of the sophistication, depth, and size of the tunnels. A military bureaucracy underestimated a terrorist threat. I guess I don't understand what point you are making with your parenthetical phrase.

Danivon:

However, it still polices the Gazan borders with itself and Egypt (and it has to be wondered how they allow tunnels to develop), and has set up a coastal blockade. Airspace is controlled by Israel. People and materials cannot get in or out with any real ease. This was the case before the Hamas takeover - in fact, it probably helped Hamas to carry it out because Fatah was unable to assist their people there.

The history is more complicated than that. The Israelis pulled out of Gaza in Sep. 2005. The Rafah crossing with Egypt was opened. Hamas was elected in Jan. 2006. In June 2007 Hamas defeated Fatah in the Battle of Gaza and after that the blockade became tough. But you have to ask yourself about Israel's policy before Hamas took control.

Once Hamas has control, with their charter calling for Israel's destruction (and the death to all Jews, you included Shrizz) I think that Israel has the right and responsibility to defend itself and its people.

When we all talked about this 2 or 4 years ago, Ricky complained that the Israelis weren't letting cement into Gaza and they needed to build homes. I showed stats about how much cement gets into Gaza. Now we understand the discrepancy. Long and deep tunnels (to the Israeli side with only one purpose: terror) require a lot of cement. Perhaps the Israeli blockade should have been tougher.