http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/03/politics/court-homeschool-asylum/

What does it matter if a family chooses to homeschool? Who are they hurting? Before someone says they kids are being hurt in this case, please be ready to provide evidence of that. (BTW, there is NO evidence)

What is the purpose of denying asylum in the US? There are so many illegal immigrants not following the rules to enter the country, what is the agenda in denial of asylum

Their asylum claim is clearly ridiculous. In effect they're saying that they merit being granted political asylum because they refuse to comply with a law that affects all Germans equally. If a Rastafarian were to claim asylum in the States on the grounds that he refused to comply with German laws prohibiting his religiously ordained use of marijuana he would be making essentially the same argument. It makes a mockery of the whole concept of asylum, which is intended to protect people who are genuinely fleeing persecution, not people who just don't fancy obeying the law.

As regards the wider issue of homeschooling, I find it difficult to support because in most cases it clearly isn't done for the right reasons. If the local schools were all terrible and the parents felt that their kids could be given a better start in life by teaching them at home then ok, I can understand that. The reality seems to be rather different though, it's an attempt to deliberately isolate children from any influences other than those which are parentally approved so that they can be better indoctrinated with their parents religious beliefs.

This strikes me as being rather unfair on the children. They miss out on the vital formative experiences that come from interacting with other children at school and it happens not because they've chosen it but because their parents have chosen it for them for reasons other than giving them the best education they can be given. I'm sure that in many cases these kids will turn out to be well-adjusted anyway and many will still end up with a decent education, but if so this will happen despite their homeschooling not because of it.

Brad, I seem to recall that you homeschooled your own children. If so then apologies if this view offends you. You're a decent man and I'm sure you've done the best by your kids as you see it. But I'm equally sure that there are a large number of homeschooled kids who will grow up having missed out on all kinds of vital social development and having their heads filled with all kinds of indoctrination that will hamper their chances later in life. I'm not really convinced that parents should have the right to choose that for their children.

Sassenach wrote:Their asylum claim is clearly ridiculous. In effect they're saying that they merit being granted political asylum because they refuse to comply with a law that affects all Germans equally. If a Rastafarian were to claim asylum in the States on the grounds that he refused to comply with German laws prohibiting his religiously ordained use of marijuana he would be making essentially the same argument. It makes a mockery of the whole concept of asylum, which is intended to protect people who are genuinely fleeing persecution, not people who just don't fancy obeying the law.

It was, apparently, not ridiculous. It's been granted.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/03 ... lum-in-us/

Sassenach wrote:As regards the wider issue of homeschooling, I find it difficult to support because in most cases it clearly isn't done for the right reasons. If the local schools were all terrible and the parents felt that their kids could be given a better start in life by teaching them at home then ok, I can understand that. The reality seems to be rather different though, it's an attempt to deliberately isolate children from any influences other than those which are parentally approved so that they can be better indoctrinated with their parents religious beliefs.

I could not disagree more.

Note well: our kids went to public schools.

However, schools in general have dipped. They are more concerned with leaving no child behind than they are in maximizing the potential of each child. There has been a paradigm shift in schools and many of us don't think it's a good one.

This strikes me as being rather unfair on the children. They miss out on the vital formative experiences that come from interacting with other children at school and it happens not because they've chosen it but because their parents have chosen it for them for reasons other than giving them the best education they can be given. I'm sure that in many cases these kids will turn out to be well-adjusted anyway and many will still end up with a decent education, but if so this will happen despite their homeschooling not because of it.

Again, this depends. Homeschoolers tend to band together and form "co-ops" that meet once or more a week for socialization and specialized teaching.

I know some very well-adjusted kids who were homeschooled. One of them has just started teaching in a public school. I know some kids who are socially awkward and were in public schools their entire lives. So, I'm not sure that either is necessarily "better."

I tell parents who ask that they have to do what they believe is best for their child.

Brad, I seem to recall that you homeschooled your own children. If so then apologies if this view offends you. You're a decent man and I'm sure you've done the best by your kids as you see it. But I'm equally sure that there are a large number of homeschooled kids who will grow up having missed out on all kinds of vital social development and having their heads filled with all kinds of indoctrination that will hamper their chances later in life. I'm not really convinced that parents should have the right to choose that for their children.

I find that entirely condescending. Worse, it presumes the State knows what's best for a child--almost that the child belongs to the State. Parents, unless they are shown to be harming the child, should have the ultimate say. Who loves and cares for a child more: the government or his/her parents? Who knows what a particular child needs--the State or the parents? To me, that's not a serious question.

Their asylum appeal hasn't been granted. They seem to have been granted 'indefinite deferred status', which is an obvious political fudge designed to minimise negative media headlines. I work in immigration myself and I see this kind of thing all the time. Where an individual case suddenly becomes a cause celebre in the media it's amazing how often they seem to benefit from some kind of reconsideration that essentially ignores the rules. We call it 'discretionary leave to remain' but the principle is the same.

Their claim was absurd and the Supreme Court clearly agreed because it declined to even hear their case. What happened here was that somebody in the administration backed down to save having to deal with a flurry of complaints from homeschooling parents.

Doctor Fate wrote:

Brad, I seem to recall that you homeschooled your own children. If so then apologies if this view offends you. You're a decent man and I'm sure you've done the best by your kids as you see it. But I'm equally sure that there are a large number of homeschooled kids who will grow up having missed out on all kinds of vital social development and having their heads filled with all kinds of indoctrination that will hamper their chances later in life. I'm not really convinced that parents should have the right to choose that for their children.

I find that entirely condescending. Worse, it presumes the State knows what's best for a child--almost that the child belongs to the State. Parents, unless they are shown to be harming the child, should have the ultimate say. Who loves and cares for a child more: the government or his/her parents? Who knows what a particular child needs--the State or the parents? To me, that's not a serious question.

The Doctor and I completely agree on this one. Public schools are great for some, even most kids, but there is a sizable minority of children who do not thrive in such an environment and do MUCH better in home schooling. If you have a square peg, don't force it into a round hole and schools expect children to conform to it, not the other way around. Perhaps it's different in the UK, but if you have a kid who's different or who learns differently than others, home schools is often a great solution.

I think all kids are better off going to public schools BUT i certainly think parents should be allowed to homeschool (for those reasons DF expressed)as long as certain minimum requirements are met.

freeman3 wrote:I think all kids are better off going to public schools BUT i certainly think parents should be allowed to homeschool (for those reasons DF expressed)as long as certain minimum requirements are met.

I do (and still am!) homeschool. We are not perfect, but the socialization aspect of the argument is tripe. My children go to church and youth group, hang out at the local store with friends, go to science fairs, have music in the public school and even have a homeschool cooperative that they attend that has dozens of children attending.

I know not every homeschool parent is perfect, and some are downright poor. However, to point out the faults of some home school parents without addressing the faults of some public and private teachers is a bit one-sided.

It would be similar to comparing RickyP's grammar and mine to prove that school that RickyP attended was faulty. (BTW, RickyP's grammar and spelling has gotten MUCH better! Good job, RickyP!!!)

freeman3 wrote:I think all kids are better off going to public schools

If you believe this, then I think you don't know very many kids.

bbauska

It would be similar to comparing RickyP's grammar and mine to prove that school that RickyP attended was faulty. (BTW, RickyP's grammar and spelling has gotten MUCH better! Good job, RickyP!!!

I installed a new browser...
That can fix lousy lazy typing.... However it can't fix people who are overly anal in their approach to discussion or repair a failure to understand logic or a basic misunderstanding of science. The former is a feature of debaters on this board and the latter two do seem to be problems that occur in modern society and particularly in the US and other countries where fundamental religious belief refuses to accept scientific knowledge on a variety of topics... Whether people have been home schooled or not this seems to be a problem where fundamental religions intrude on schooling public or private.

There are two dangers to home schooling, if the parents simply want to isolate their children from what they consider to be dangerous ideas. And if parents have an overly optimistic concept of their own abilities as a teacher....
Perhaps the requirement for passing standardized testing can ensure that curriculum is covered adequately?

I remember from previous debates on this subject, that home schooled children actually score much higher on standardized testing. If superior results are what we judge teaching methods then I think we have to accept that home schooling can be superior. It really depends on the teacher....
The only problem for children is that in a public school you might get sub par teaching sometimes ....but a home schooled child might find they have a sub par teacher all the time. (Or alternatively a much superior teacher all the time...)
The vulnerability of a child home schooled is really only in that area..... The qualification of the teacher....
At some point as their child progresses through the grades ... most parents are going to find themselves inadequate to teach a subject. If they are honest. How does the parent deal with that? )

Well, George I don't have kids so there is that...but I was one once so I think I have enough understanding of this topic. I think it is a good idea to go to public schools and meet kids who have different backgrounds (racial, socio-economic, religious, etc.). Learning how to deal with people that are not like you is a good experience and broadens a person's outlook. As for academically, kids with good parents will do fine in most schools (though to be sure, even better in schools in expensive zip codes)I see homeschooling as being overprotective and/or arising out of a fear by parents that schools will influence their kids in ways contrary to their religious beliefs. I don't believe these are good reasons, but I don't believe the government has the right to force kids to go to public schools as long as the parents are providing for their education.

freeman3 wrote:Well, George I don't have kids so there is that...but I was one once so I think I have enough understanding of this topic. I think it is a good idea to go to public schools and meet kids who have different backgrounds (racial, socio-economic, religious, etc.). Learning how to deal with people that are not like you is a good experience and broadens a person's outlook. As for academically, kids with good parents will do fine in most schools (though to be sure, even better in schools in expensive zip codes)I see homeschooling as being overprotective and/or arising out of a fear by parents that schools will influence their kids in ways contrary to their religious beliefs. I don't believe these are good reasons, but I don't believe the government has the right to force kids to go to public schools as long as the parents are providing for their education.

This is ideology. What you're saying has nothing to do with reality. And ideologically I agree with you. But the reality is that there are kids who are different: physically, mentally, socially, who are completely marginalized, stigmatized and/or ostracized in a typical school environment. Some kids, maybe 1 out of 100, or 1 out of 1000 may be deeply harmed either physically or mentally by the experience. Those kids should not be in a standard school environment, especially since schools don't adapt to their special needs. When parents can rescue those kids from those situations, that's great and should be supported by everyone, including you. The tragedy is these special need kids who don't have parents who can provide them such a situation and are failed in so many serious ways by the school experience.

Great question, RickyP.

I am by no means the poster parent for homeschooling, but I think we do rather well. My wife has shortcomings in the advanced maths (Above basic algebra), and history. These are not areas she enjoys. I teach those areas/ That being said, homeschooling is a dual parent job. I want to be a part of my children's education, and consider it an honor to teach.
We have no preconceived notions that we are the end all of teaching. In fact, that is one of the best attributes that ANY teacher can have. If you are a lousy teacher at a subject, do not do it. Get help. I cannot teach music, and my wife can sing, but teach any instrument. We use a piano teacher to help.
I am sure that you have had bad teachers, I have too. As Sass says, kids can achieve above that. They do all the time. Kids achieve above the supposed non-socialization, as well.

Interesting note...
My wife read the post from Sass about isolation. She completely agreed that homeschooling parents often ensure there kids miss out on formative experiences in the public schools. She even gave a few examples:
Bullying
Gangs
Gunfire
Drugs
Contrary values

School MUST be done correctly. You must invest in textbooks and a curriculum that meets the needs and goals you desire. You must invest time. We have at least 4 hours a day of school. If it is not done, then they do not get time for other things until school is complete. You must invest in organization your your teaching. To be disorganized means that concepts that need to be taught can be missed.

Homeschooling is not for everyone. Neither is private school or public school. I hate it when a homeschool parent does a lousy job. It makes my wife and me look bad. A bad teacher makes all teachers look a little less as well. I do not mandate that all kids be taught at home. Do not mandate that all children be taught at a facility school.

I do think that the education dollars that are slated for children through state and federal programs should be just that. Every child should have those dollars available to them regardless of the location that they attend. If it is Public, Private, Charter, or Home Schools, the teachers of these children should have the funds at their disposal to aid in the education of their students.