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Post 30 Jul 2013, 1:57 pm

I'm accused of having ODS.

It's not the man; it's his policies and his worldview.

“And we discussed the fact that Ho Chi Minh was actually inspired by the U.S. Declaration of Independence and Constitution, and the words of Thomas Jefferson,” Obama said. “Ho Chi Minh talks about his interest in cooperation with the United States. And President Sang indicated that even if it’s 67 years later, it’s good that we’re still making progress.”

Rep. Ileana Ros-Lehtinen (R-Fla.) noted that her husband, Dexter, “is a Vietnam combat veteran who was severely injured in battle while fighting for the ideals of Jefferson, Adams, Franklin, Madison and Washington.”

“In 1971, I awakened after three days of unconsciousness aboard a hospital ship off the coast of Vietnam. I could not see, my jaws were wired shut, and my left cheekbone was missing, a gaping hole in its place. Later, while still in that condition at St Albans Naval Hospital, one of my earliest recollections was hearing of John Kerry’s testimony before Congress,” Dexter Lehtinen, a former Florida state senator, said in a 2004 ad against Kerry’s presidential candidacy. Lehtinen received the Purple Heart for his injuries.

Rep. Ros-Lehtinen said for Obama, “who has sworn to preserve, protect and defend their ideals that founded this nation, to equate Ho Chi Minh to Thomas Jefferson is an insult to the service and sacrifice of all of those who served in Vietnam.”

“Saying that a butcher who slaughtered his opponents and butchered those who resisted his tyranny was inspired by the ideals that make this nation the freest and most democratic country in the world belittles our Founding Fathers and those shed blood to protect their vision,” she added.

The White House has not issued any clarification to Obama’s remarks.

Ho Chi Minh quoted the Declaration of Independence in opposition to the French colonial power in Vietnam, in a speech in Ba Dinh Square, September 2, 1945. He then proceeded to commit atrocities against the people of Vietnam in his quest for a Marxist state.


Ho Chi Minh is not worthy of anything close to what Obama said.

Worship him all you'd like. He is a flawed man with limited leadership capacity who has weakened the United States internally and externally. Why? Because he looks at a man like Ho Chi Minh and finds a kindred spirit.
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Post 30 Jul 2013, 2:40 pm

What military suppression of the vote are you talking about? http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2 ... ballots/2/
Give me some evidence of what you are talking about and then I can respond.
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Post 30 Jul 2013, 3:25 pm

Wrong forum.
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Post 31 Jul 2013, 1:11 am

Who is worshipping Obama on here?

Is mentioning Ho Chi Minh's invokation of the US Independence example for his own national independence movement the same as 'equating' him to Jefferson. Pretty much every independence movement since the 1770s has invoked the US Declaration, and so too have republican movements. The French and Bolivaran Revolutions are clearly inspired by the American. That is not the same as equating Marat or Bolivar the dictators to Jefferson or Washington.

There is adulation, and there is the opposite - a desperate desire to see wrong in all someone does.

Neither is helpful. I see more of the latter - particularly from you, DF - on here and in wider discourse than I do the former. Even if people do 'worship' Obama (and those who worship any man are fooling themselves), it doesn't mean you have to go the other way just as hard.

Whatever happened to the middle ground, to concilation, to respectful disagreement etc?
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Post 31 Jul 2013, 4:47 am

danivon wrote:Who is worshipping Obama on here?


Call it whatever you like, maybe hyperdulia.

Is mentioning Ho Chi Minh's invokation of the US Independence example for his own national independence movement the same as 'equating' him to Jefferson. Pretty much every independence movement since the 1770s has invoked the US Declaration, and so too have republican movements. The French and Bolivaran Revolutions are clearly inspired by the American. That is not the same as equating Marat or Bolivar the dictators to Jefferson or Washington.


For a President to say Ho was inspired by men who did not commit mass murder against their own people is insulting to the Founders. The only thing they have in common is a struggle against colonial powers.

There is adulation, and there is the opposite - a desperate desire to see wrong in all someone does.


There's nothing desperate about it. Here in the States it's known as "observation."

Neither is helpful. I see more of the latter - particularly from you, DF - on here and in wider discourse than I do the former. Even if people do 'worship' Obama (and those who worship any man are fooling themselves), it doesn't mean you have to go the other way just as hard.


Not against the man, but his policies and beliefs. He has always believed this country is heavily flawed; this statement just put another exclamation point on it.

Whatever happened to the middle ground, to concilation, to respectful disagreement etc?


I respectfully disagree with 99.8 percent of his policies. His public pronouncements are probably a bit less favorable.
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Post 31 Jul 2013, 6:53 am

Doctor Fate wrote:
danivon wrote:Who is worshipping Obama on here?

Call it whatever you like, maybe hyperdulia.
It was not a definitional question that I asked. Hyperdulia amounts to the same thing, but who exactly is worshipping / venerating as a saint or whatever you want to call it.

Basically, is it really worth your effort to argue against a position that we do not hold?

Is mentioning Ho Chi Minh's invokation of the US Independence example for his own national independence movement the same as 'equating' him to Jefferson. Pretty much every independence movement since the 1770s has invoked the US Declaration, and so too have republican movements. The French and Bolivaran Revolutions are clearly inspired by the American. That is not the same as equating Marat or Bolivar the dictators to Jefferson or Washington.


For a President to say Ho was inspired by men who did not commit mass murder against their own people is insulting to the Founders. The only thing they have in common is a struggle against colonial powers.
Well, as the Founders are dead, and were themselves by no meams perfext (many owned and/or traded slaves, for example), I'm not sure they can be insulted. Especially as they are just dead men, and not saints or icons to be venerated and never blasphemed against.

There is adulation, and there is the opposite - a desperate desire to see wrong in all someone does.


There's nothing desperate about it. Here in the States it's known as "observation."
When people did the same for Bush II, it was just the same.

Neither is helpful. I see more of the latter - particularly from you, DF - on here and in wider discourse than I do the former. Even if people do 'worship' Obama (and those who worship any man are fooling themselves), it doesn't mean you have to go the other way just as hard.


Not against the man, but his policies and beliefs. He has always believed this country is heavily flawed; this statement just put another exclamation point on it.
Anyone who runs for President surely thinks the country is flawed, if not heavily then at least significantly, or they would just run on a slogan and policy platform of "Everything is ok as it is and there's no change or improvement to make". Reagan made a lot of changes, presumably because he though that the USA of the 70s had some flaws. Both Roosevelts did the same. And unless Obama was actually praising (or even referring to positively) Ho Chi Minh's Communism or violent leadership, I don't see the link is that obvious. You, and the other pearl-clutchers, were looking for it and joining up dots - that is not mere observation, it is supposition.


Whatever happened to the middle ground, to concilation, to respectful disagreement etc?


I respectfully disagree with 99.8 percent of his policies. His public pronouncements are probably a bit less favorable.
[/quote]Given that the gulf in policy terms between the Democrats and Republicans is about half an inch wide, even between a hardcore conservative like yourself and a President alleged to be a socialist ("my arse" as Jim Royle would say), I bet your figure is wildly out.

As a thought exercise, can you work out what the 0.2% you do agree with is? I would be intersting to note what is and isn't there.
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Post 31 Jul 2013, 7:22 am

danivon wrote:Basically, is it really worth your effort to argue against a position that we do not hold?


I didn't. All I said was I can't do it. Whether you do it or not is up to you to evaluate.

Well, as the Founders are dead, and were themselves by no meams perfext (many owned and/or traded slaves, for example), I'm not sure they can be insulted. Especially as they are just dead men, and not saints or icons to be venerated and never blasphemed against.


The problem is that he venerated Ho. Not surprising to me as he actually despises the US--it was his wife who famously said, “For the first time in my adult lifetime, I’m really proud of my country … not just because Barack has done well, but because I think people are hungry for change. I have been desperate to see our country moving in that direction and just not feeling so alone in my frustration and disappointment.”

Not against the man, but his policies and beliefs. He has always believed this country is heavily flawed; this statement just put another exclamation point on it.
Anyone who runs for President surely thinks the country is flawed, if not heavily then at least significantly, or they would just run on a slogan and policy platform of "Everything is ok as it is and there's no change or improvement to make".


NB: Obama said, “We are going to fundamentally change America.”

Few others have ever said that. He is trying to cripple our economy by forcing our energy sources to the most expensive options. He is using the EPA to punish suburbs. He is using the NLRB (or trying) to punish corporations. He excoriates his opponents constantly, then wonders why they resist his ideas. He decries "phony scandals" which he (and his Administration) had previously announced they would investigate and would cooperate fully with Congress.

He is a radical man bent on radical change.

And unless Obama was actually praising (or even referring to positively) Ho Chi Minh's Communism or violent leadership, I don't see the link is that obvious.


He was.

You, and the other pearl-clutchers, were looking for it and joining up dots - that is not mere observation, it is supposition.


Nope, just watching what he says, what he does and the people he appoints.

“Climate change will not be resolved overnight,” she told the 310-person audience. “But it will be engaged over the next three years. That I can promise you.”

McCarthy made a full-throated defense of her agency’s right to address greenhouse gas emissions and other pollutants, detailing how the air quality regulations and brownfield cleanup efforts have produced economic benefits in the United States. “Can we stop talking about environmental regulations killing jobs, please?,” she asked, prompting loud applause.“We need to embrace cutting edge technology as a way to spark business innovation,” her Boston accent so evident in the hard “a” in spark, she then repeated, “And I said ‘spaahrk.’”

. . .

She identified climate change as the agency’s top priority, saying it would model its efforts on the stricter fuel efficiency standards for cars and light trucks the administration brokered with the auto industry during its first term.

“EPA cannot dictate solutions,” McCarthy said. “We have to engage.”

McCarthy has already been meeting with utility executives and coal industry officials, some of whom fear the administration’s plan to limit carbon dioxide emissions from existing plants will shutter many plants.

Hal Quinn, president and CEO of the National Mining Association, said during a March 26 meeting with McCarthy he “found her keenly interested in…our technical assessment of what will transpire because of the rulemaking at EPA” but remains worried the agency will press for an unrealistic carbon standards.

“The investments that have been made in utilities that could be jeopardized or stranded because of the [administration’s] rules on greenhouse gas emissions,” noting that the EPA’s 2011 mercury and air toxics rule had already forced utilities to retire at least 40,000 megawatts of coal-fired electricity.

At the time, Quinn noted, EPA said the new rule would result in the retirement of 9,000 MW of capacity. “Clearly their forecast was off,” he said.

In an interview, McCarthy said the announced closings have come so far ahead of when utilities are required to comply with the new mercury limit, “It’s hard for me to think our rule is the driving factor behind these closures. This is about the abundance of low-cost natural gas. It’s about how utilities are making decisions, company-wide, about how to invest in the future the way they see it right now.”

During the speech, McCarthy said the agency would also look at matters including water quality and environmental justice, a hallmark issue for her predecessor, Lisa P. Jackson.

“I have no intention of leaving behind environmental justice communities,” she said, adding that they will bear the brunt of climate change. “We need to look at who is not winning in this equation.”


Yes, she will do everything she can to make energy prices soar and damage the economy. She is a true believer--which is why the President selected her. He consistently picks the most anti-business, anti-energy folks who do not have the capacity to run a balloon stand.

Lisa Jackson, the previous EPA Administrator, violated federal law. I eagerly await her prosecution.

Then again, Holder has violated the law and he's supposed to prosecute her . . . never mind.

Given that the gulf in policy terms between the Democrats and Republicans is about half an inch wide, even between a hardcore conservative like yourself and a President alleged to be a socialist ("my arse" as Jim Royle would say), I bet your figure is wildly out.


False--as demonstrated by your next comment.

As a thought exercise, can you work out what the 0.2% you do agree with is? I would be intersting to note what is and isn't there.


I left the 0.2% as wiggle room, in the unlikely event that I do agree with him on something. I think his foreign policy has been a disaster. Domestically, he's been a bit worse. Other than that, he's doing a fine job.
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Post 31 Jul 2013, 7:33 am

Dr. Fate:
I left the 0.2% as wiggle room, in the unlikely event that I do agree with him on something. I think his foreign policy has been a disaster. Domestically, he's been a bit worse. Other than that, he's doing a fine job


I thought you were going to say he got OBL
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Post 31 Jul 2013, 7:44 am

Ray Jay wrote:Dr. Fate:
I left the 0.2% as wiggle room, in the unlikely event that I do agree with him on something. I think his foreign policy has been a disaster. Domestically, he's been a bit worse. Other than that, he's doing a fine job


I thought you were going to say he got OBL


No, I'll let him brag about that . . . some more. Actually, props to him for not mentioning it during his recent campaign, er, economic speeches.
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Post 31 Jul 2013, 10:40 am

Doctor Fate wrote:I didn't. All I said was I can't do it. Whether you do it or not is up to you to evaluate.
Well, after four and a half years of invective, you are hardly making some kind of revelation here. Believe me, we get it - you don't like Obama.

I would also think it fairly obvious that I do not venerate Obama. I posted before his inauguration to that effect, and while I may agree with him more than you do, that is most emphatically not the same thing.

The problem is that he venerated Ho.
Where do we see that 'veneration'? I see in the quote just that he was talking nice with the leaders of Vietnam. But he wasn't saying Ho was great - just citing his inspiration (which is a matter of record, at least in Ho Chi Minh's own words going back to the time he spent in the USA, UK and France during his youth)

Not surprising to me as he actually despises the US--it was his wife who famously said, “For the first time in my adult lifetime, I’m really proud of my country … not just because Barack has done well, but because I think people are hungry for change. I have been desperate to see our country moving in that direction and just not feeling so alone in my frustration and disappointment.”
Maybe you and your wife are the same person and always agree or have the same beliefs as each other, but this is not always the case.

NB: Obama said, “We are going to fundamentally change America.”
Yes, and? My point is that all politicians are likely to want change, sometimes massive or fundamental.

"Once you begin a great movement, there's no telling where it will end. We meant to change a nation, and instead, we changed a world." Ronald Reagan

And unless Obama was actually praising (or even referring to positively) Ho Chi Minh's Communism or violent leadership, I don't see the link is that obvious.


He was.
Please elucidate. Please show where he does that - mention or praise Ho Chi Minh's communism or his acts in power. It is not in the quote you supplied.

Given that the gulf in policy terms between the Democrats and Republicans is about half an inch wide, even between a hardcore conservative like yourself and a President alleged to be a socialist ("my arse" as Jim Royle would say), I bet your figure is wildly out.


False--as demonstrated by your next comment.

As a thought exercise, can you work out what the 0.2% you do agree with is? I would be intersting to note what is and isn't there.


I left the 0.2% as wiggle room, in the unlikely event that I do agree with him on something. I think his foreign policy has been a disaster. Domestically, he's been a bit worse. Other than that, he's doing a fine job.
Well, clearly there's a massive gap between you and Obama but is it really that total on policy?

Really?

Apart from OBL, you cannot think of a single policy that you agree with? That is not surprising (it's amazing how people will instantly dislike a policy from a politician they already dislike, or a product from a brand they don't like - it's a tribal thing), but I wonder if it is actually objectively true.

Did you agree with extendinng the Bush Tax cuts for those on less than $250,000? (and did you agree with the majority of House Republicans who backed the 2010 tax bill which extended them all, or the large number of House Democrats who opposed it?)

Did you agree with a boost to deployment in Afghanistan?

Did you agree with continuing the development of cyberwar to stymie the Iranian nuclear programme? Which, through stuxnet, worked.

Ah, but I am sure you can find ways to rationalise things. It's a symptom of the ODS.
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Post 31 Jul 2013, 12:19 pm

If that works for you, fine.

You clearly have DFDS.
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Post 31 Jul 2013, 1:41 pm

danivon wrote:Where do we see that 'veneration'? I see in the quote just that he was talking nice with the leaders of Vietnam. But he wasn't saying Ho was great - just citing his inspiration (which is a matter of record, at least in Ho Chi Minh's own words going back to the time he spent in the USA, UK and France during his youth)


Because everyone knows the revolutionaries in America ruled by intimidation . . . Ho was no more inspired by the American Revolution than he was by Gandhi. He was a communist revolutionary who believed in doing whatever was necessary to win, without regard to its morality.

Not surprising to me as he actually despises the US--it was his wife who famously said, “For the first time in my adult lifetime, I’m really proud of my country … not just because Barack has done well, but because I think people are hungry for change. I have been desperate to see our country moving in that direction and just not feeling so alone in my frustration and disappointment.”
Maybe you and your wife are the same person and always agree or have the same beliefs as each other, but this is not always the case.


Yet, there is no evidence he disagrees with her. She is a radical and she married a radical.

NB: Obama said, “We are going to fundamentally change America.”
Yes, and? My point is that all politicians are likely to want change, sometimes massive or fundamental.

"Once you begin a great movement, there's no telling where it will end. We meant to change a nation, and instead, we changed a world." Ronald Reagan


Reagan did not fundamentally change the country. Obama is trying his best to turn us into a hopeless socialist state. His energy policies, regulatory policies, contempt for the Constitution, etc. bespeak of someone who views himself as an iconoclast. If he's able, there will be no chance we will ever recover.

Please elucidate. Please show where he does that - mention or praise Ho Chi Minh's communism or his acts in power. It is not in the quote you supplied.


Come on, that's exactly why he said it--he was trying to ingratiate himself with the Vietnamese by lionizing a murderer. He might just as well have been talking about Stalin.

Well, clearly there's a massive gap between you and Obama but is it really that total on policy?

Really?

Apart from OBL, you cannot think of a single policy that you agree with?


Actually, I think he did a pretty lousy job on that too. Waited too long, endangered the life of the doctor who helped us, released a lot of intel to make himself look good.

Did you agree with extendinng the Bush Tax cuts for those on less than $250,000?


I disagreed with the deal.

Did you agree with a boost to deployment in Afghanistan?


Nope, called for us to get out well before Obama was elected--based on the ROE, which have worsened over time.

Did you agree with continuing the development of cyberwar to stymie the Iranian nuclear programme? Which, through stuxnet, worked.


We don't know how much Obama had to do with it. It's a bit like OBL: listen to the White House long enough, and Obama developed the worm, flew to Iran armed with nothing but a flash-drive and took it down himself.

Ah, but I am sure you can find ways to rationalise things. It's a symptom of the ODS.


I don't agree with him on much of anything.

He is the most political, most divisive President in our history. You can't find another who so relentlessly, consistently blamed everyone else for the problems of this country and so constantly took the credit for anything that goes right. He is the most arrogant man to ever sit in the Oval Office--and that's saying something.

Just the other day during his "economic speech" he blamed Bush (not by name) and Republicans for every problem. He is the Bystander-in-Chief . . . until something goes right. In that case, he did it. Just ask him.
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Post 31 Jul 2013, 2:34 pm

What a hatchet job. President Obama meets with the leader of another country who brings with him a letter from Ho Chi Min. The two men discussed this letter. Then Obama recounts the discussion of this letter. Presumably we would like better relations with Vietnam. I don't see that Obama glorified Ho Chi Min, he just did not condemn him. Obama did not bring the issue up, the Vietnamese leader did. What was he supposed to do? Was he supposed to say Vietnamese president brought up this letter to president Truman (I did not see the letter but I believe the letter itself makes references to Ho Chi Min being inspired by the founders), but then say he condemned Ho Chi Mi? What brilliant diplomacy that would be. I note that the Vietnamese president did not mention My Lai, two million Vietnamese dying in the war, Agent Orange, the bombing of North Vietnam, use of napalm, our support of repressive South Vietnamese dictators, either. Perhaps they were trying to get along, no?
As for the vitriol expressed towards Obama with so little evidence by so many White men (with none being expressed towards GW Bush for his the horrible damage he caused by an illegal war in Iraq, deficit creation, and his role in the Financial Crisis), it is difficult to know what is in another person's mind. Maybe white men have not adjusted to being ordered around by a black man?
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Post 31 Jul 2013, 3:20 pm

freeman3 wrote:What a hatchet job. President Obama meets with the leader of another country who brings with him a letter from Ho Chi Min. The two men discussed this letter. Then Obama recounts the discussion of this letter. Presumably we would like better relations with Vietnam. I don't see that Obama glorified Ho Chi Min, he just did not condemn him. Obama did not bring the issue up, the Vietnamese leader did. What was he supposed to do? Was he supposed to say Vietnamese president brought up this letter to president Truman (I did not see the letter but I believe the letter itself makes references to Ho Chi Min being inspired by the founders), but then say he condemned Ho Chi Mi? What brilliant diplomacy that would be. I note that the Vietnamese president did not mention My Lai, two million Vietnamese dying in the war, Agent Orange, the bombing of North Vietnam, use of napalm, our support of repressive South Vietnamese dictators, either. Perhaps they were trying to get along, no?
As for the vitriol expressed towards Obama with so little evidence by so many White men (with none being expressed towards GW Bush for his the horrible damage he caused by an illegal war in Iraq, deficit creation, and his role in the Financial Crisis), it is difficult to know what is in another person's mind. Maybe white men have not adjusted to being ordered around by a black man?


What a hatchet job. Maybe liberals can call "racism" whenever they want, but it doesn't make it any more honest.

What was he supposed to do? Oh, maybe something over the top like say "thank you."

How many of those 2 million were butchered by Ho? What happened to the South Vietnamese when the North won? Did the North emulate Lincoln?

The problem isn't saying nice things about Vietnam. The problem is saying things about a maniacal murderer. I know that difference is difficult to grasp.

Maybe you just hate white people.
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Post 01 Aug 2013, 5:19 am

I don't even understand this forum. The declaration of independence of Viet Nam was influenced by the Declaration of Independence and Ho was a student of politics, including the founding fathers. Are you saying he wasn't? Or are you saying that because he was an enemy of the nation Obama shouldn't have acknowledged his influences? What is bothering you about his relatively mild, factual statement?