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- Doctor Fate
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03 Jul 2013, 10:59 am
The Bible can get you arrested! This is a friend of mine, who mistakenly thought Britain had freedom of speech and religion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... XzVo#at=91
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- GMTom
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03 Jul 2013, 11:35 am
and they can point out how they thought we had freedom of the press yet we are cracking down on leaks and punishing like never before.
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- Doctor Fate
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03 Jul 2013, 11:42 am
To summarize, for reading and preaching publicly the Bible, including part which spoke of any sexual immorality, including homosexuality, the man was arrested.
That is less freedom than I would expect.
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- Doctor Fate
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03 Jul 2013, 11:48 am
From a Brit religious blog:Tony Miano is a street evangelist. He is also a retired veteran of the Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department. During his career, he has served as a gang and juvenile crime investigator, field training officer, drug recognition expert, and a DUI enforcement specialist. According to his biography, he has 'received more than 60 commendations and citations for meritorious service, arrests, criminal investigations, and community service'.
He knows a thing or two about the law.
Mr Miano has recently been out preaching in Wimbledon. He very much enjoys biblical evangelism, speaking about spiritual growth, personal holiness and the person and work of Jesus Christ. On Monday, his theme was sexual immorality - all forms (1Thess 4:1-12). He talked about sin - heterosexual and homosexual - without discrimination. As he was preaching, a lady heard him say that homosexuality was a sin, and promptly summoned the police, who duly arrived.
Mr Miano was then arrested for violating Section 5 of the Public Order Act: he was accused of using homophobic speech likely to cause anxiety, distress, alarm or insult.
He was escorted to Wimbledon police station, where he was photographed, finger-printed and had a DNA sample taken. He was then incarcerated in a cell for seven hours.
And he was interrogated about his faith in Jesus Christ.
He was asked if he believed homosexuality was a sin. He was asked from which portion of the Bible he was preaching. Incredibly, he was asked whether, if a homosexual was hungry and walked up to him, he would give them something to eat.
He was then informed that there was sufficient evidence from his responses to forward his case to the CPS, and that the judge could order him to remain in the country for 4-5 months while his case came to trial.
Even before Parliament has legislated for same-sex marriage, we see the threat to religious liberty. Not since 1559 has there been an Act of Uniformity requiring everyone to assent to a particular worldview, and it took more than 300 years to eradicate that. But now we have a new Act of Uniformity which elevates equality and sexual orientation to a quasi-religious status which trumps any religious worldview which opposes it. It is secular pluralism by statute law.
Christians are harassed, intimidated, persecuted and interrogated. What manner of inquisition is it that asks: "If a homosexual was hungry and walked up to you, would you give them something to eat?"
And what manner of theological ignorance is it which has no grasp of the Christian divine command to love your neighbour by giving them food (Mt 25:35); or any understanding of the fundamental liberty to preach liberty to the captives?
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- GMTom
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03 Jul 2013, 12:32 pm
Wouldn't it have been so much the better if anyone who disagreed with this man were to boo him until the police came and simply asked him to move along?
Those who disagreed would have had their say by booing him and quite possibly a large crowd would form doing the same? The police would have asked him to move along, no harm, no foul. Everyone is a winner.
Nooooo, instead we have this woman hiding behind others and not facing what she doesn't like to hear and we have the police making this an issue that really should be ...nothing
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- bbauska
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03 Jul 2013, 1:39 pm
What sort of "tolerance" is being exhibited here? He gives his opinion, and does not discriminate through his actions in any way. Is the UK government being intolerant, Danivon? You are there, what is your opinion?
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- danivon
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03 Jul 2013, 3:53 pm
bbauska wrote:What sort of "tolerance" is being exhibited here? He gives his opinion, and does not discriminate through his actions in any way. Is the UK government being intolerant, Danivon? You are there, what is your opinion?
Not seen the video linked to, so cannot comment on it. We do not have the First Amendment here, and I haven't seen the other side of the story.
He'd have been fine at Speaker's Corner.
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- bbauska
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03 Jul 2013, 3:55 pm
danivon wrote:bbauska wrote:What sort of "tolerance" is being exhibited here? He gives his opinion, and does not discriminate through his actions in any way. Is the UK government being intolerant, Danivon? You are there, what is your opinion?
Not seen the video linked to, so cannot comment on it. We do not have the First Amendment here, and I haven't seen the other side of the story.
He'd have been fine at Speaker's Corner.
Wasn't talking legally, as I know you do not have US Constitution rights. I was talking tolerance of differing opinions, and is that a UK trait (generally speaking)?
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- Sassenach
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03 Jul 2013, 4:25 pm
This kind of petty authoritarianism is actually quite common here. What this guy probably fell foul of is one of the 'incitement to *** hatred' laws we have. There's been much worse than what happened to him though. People have been prosecuted for making a joke in poor taste to their 15 twitter followers after getting home drunk. Admittedly it was a racist remark, but it hardly merits a prison sentence, which I believe is what he got. A busker once got charged with incitement to racial hatred because he played the first few bars of Kung Fu Fighting when a couple of Chinese students walked past. The cops in Edinburgh even arrested a man for being disrespectful to a police horse. Most of these prosecutions under the hate crime legislation is trivial and petty. We shouldn't be criminalising speech and the police should stop grandstanding with stuff like this and get back to real policing.
My personal opinion is that the police have been out of control in this country for many years and need to wind their necks in. Every few months you see another scandal breaking. You may not have heard about the story that's been slowly rumbling away for a while here about the police deep cover agents. They sent serving coppers to infiltrate various environmentalist groups and other activists for leftwing causes. They lived with these guys for years and inevitably started up relationships with all kinds of women, many of which resulted in children. Apparently there may have been hundreds of coppers involved in this kind of work, and for what ? This kind of thing is bang out of order. The police have had it good for a long time now and they need to be brought back under control. The Met have overreached themselves though. They made some very dangerous enemies when they tried to fit up Andrew Mitchell. Half the Tory party now want revenge. If they get re-elected in 2015 I suspect the police will be for a major shakeup.
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- danivon
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04 Jul 2013, 1:08 am
bbauska wrote:Wasn't talking legally, as I know you do not have US Constitution rights. I was talking tolerance of differing opinions, and is that a UK trait (generally speaking)?
Well I was going on the subject of the thread. I think it's quite intolerant to stand on street corners and shout at people about them being sinners. Apparently that's actually tolerance, and merely disagreeing with someone's dogmatic 'moral' position on a webforum is not.
Going by Miano's claims it seems like the police over-reacted, but the again all I see is his claims (and repeats of them by his friends and allies). Perhaps there was a concern about public order, but without a more complete picture, who can be sure?
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- Doctor Fate
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04 Jul 2013, 7:03 am
danivon wrote:bbauska wrote:Wasn't talking legally, as I know you do not have US Constitution rights. I was talking tolerance of differing opinions, and is that a UK trait (generally speaking)?
Well I was going on the subject of the thread. I think it's quite intolerant to stand on street corners and shout at people about them being sinners. Apparently that's actually tolerance, and merely disagreeing with someone's dogmatic 'moral' position on a webforum is not.
Going by Miano's claims it seems like the police over-reacted, but the again all I see is his claims (and repeats of them by his friends and allies). Perhaps there was a concern about public order, but without a more complete picture, who can be sure?
So, when the video is posted . . . Will you have a genuine response?
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- danivon
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04 Jul 2013, 7:20 am
I have given my genuine response to what I've seen. As and when I see more I may well indeed add to that. I did start to watch the youtube video you posted but it was late so I needed to get some sleep. All I saw was Miano talking about it. I believe there is to be a video of the actual event, but he's discussing a Christian legal group here about making it public.
As in the Zimmerman court case, I'm leery of accepting as truth what witnesses say. Even without intent to mislead, such things can be subjective. Was Miano only reading verses from the Bible, or was he actually expounding on them, and in doing so what was he actually saying (and how was he saying it)?
Last year three Muslims were convicted were jailed for anti-homosexual leaflets they put out in Derby.
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- Doctor Fate
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04 Jul 2013, 7:57 am
danivon wrote:I have given my genuine response to what I've seen. As and when I see more I may well indeed add to that. I did start to watch the youtube video you posted but it was late so I needed to get some sleep. All I saw was Miano talking about it. I believe there is to be a video of the actual event, but he's discussing a Christian legal group here about making it public.
Here it is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2vu9CI5Ij4 As in the Zimmerman court case, I'm leery of accepting as truth what witnesses say. Even without intent to mislead, such things can be subjective. Was Miano only reading verses from the Bible, or was he actually expounding on them, and in doing so what was he actually saying (and how was he saying it)?
Judge for yourself.
Last year three Muslims were convicted were jailed for anti-homosexual leaflets they put out in Derby.
Nice bit of editing. The problem with google is I can look it up when something looks wrong.
DERBY, England, Feb. 11 (UPI) -- Three Muslims received sentences of up to two years in prison in England for handing out leaflets calling for the death penalty for homosexuality.
Let me know if you find Tony calling for death to homosexuals.
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- danivon
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04 Jul 2013, 8:49 am
In the Derby case, I was not 'editing'. Understatement is a British thing.
I am sure that they would contend that all they were doing was lobbying for a change in the law and highlighting the moral dangers to people of homosexuality, backed up by the Koran. The said that gays would burn (as they were talking about Hell), and the leaflet title included the question "Death Penalty?" rather than the demand for it.
I mentioned it not to claim it was equivalent, but to point out (in addition to points made by Sass) that the law has changed and there is a line where freedom of expression goes beyond the point where it becomes defined as hate. Also to show that it's not only Christians who flout the law.
Do you think it was right for those Muslims to be jailed? If so, where would you put the line that they crossed, and should it apply to everyone?
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- Doctor Fate
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04 Jul 2013, 9:14 am
danivon wrote:Also to show that it's not only Christians who flout the law.
If, after watching the video, you conclude Tony was "flouting the law," I would suggest you have a sorry law.
Do you think it was right for those Muslims to be jailed? If so, where would you put the line that they crossed, and should it apply to everyone?
I think freedom of speech should be afforded the broadest possible latitude. So, no, I don't think they should have been jailed unless their actions led directly to injury or harm being done.
Here's the police interrogation--a transcript.
http://www.crossencounters.us/2013/07/p ... miano.html Fascinating that a woman can be offended and have someone arrested after SHE told him to f-off. That's an amazing law.