View topic - Offshoring - do we outsource responsibility? • Redscape

: danivon; Ambassador; Posts: 16006; Joined: 15 Apr 2004, 6:29 am

29 Apr 2013, 2:15 pm

After this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Savar ... g_collapse

How much responsibility do the companies in the West (the Benetton Group, The Children's Place, Primark, Monsoon, DressBarn, and possibly Walmart) have for cutting costs to the point that they purchase from companies that send workers into a building that was developing large cracks?

: bbauska; Administrator; Posts: 7463; Joined: 26 Jun 2000, 1:13 pm

29 Apr 2013, 3:18 pm

Is there evidence showing these business were complicit (or even aware of the building cracks)?

: geojanes; Dignitary; Posts: 3536; Joined: 02 Oct 2000, 9:01 am

29 Apr 2013, 7:37 pm

danivon wrote:After this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Savar ... g_collapse

How much responsibility do the companies in the West (the Benetton Group, The Children's Place, Primark, Monsoon, DressBarn, and possibly Walmart) have for cutting costs to the point that they purchase from companies that send workers into a building that was developing large cracks?

Some, but not much. We've got to rely upon the gov'ts of the home countries to regulate their health and safety in a way that's appropriate for that country. Private enterprise cannot foist its values upon the standards of another country. That said, however, these companies need to understand that events like this cost in both actual $$ and brand damage, and they need to pay attention to all the costs they incur.

: rickyp; Statesman; Posts: 11324; Joined: 15 Aug 2000, 8:59 am

30 Apr 2013, 7:13 am

Chinese companies were out sourcing production to this plant.
How low do labour costs have to get when China is out sourcing to you?

Loblaws, who's brand Joe Fresh was being made in an outsourcing agreement from another Bangladesh factory (one of the problems for companies is following the production without in place staff), are committed to paying benefits to families of victims. But the hit to their brand will be large no matter....
Unless trade agreements begin to incorporate improved labour standards and a way to enforce them for the importing nation ....the evolution of better standards in places like Bangladesh will take several decades just as it did in the West during our industrialization.

: GMTom; Administrator; Posts: 11284; Joined: 14 Feb 2000, 8:40 am

30 Apr 2013, 7:43 am

How much responsibility is on Walmart, Dressbarn, etc?
None

If you want to lump some responsibility on them then it would follow that every consumer who buys from one of these companies also bears responsibility and frankly, it is not my concern nor my responsibility to try and figure out where the socks I buy are made and in what sort of condition the factory is in.

: danivon; Ambassador; Posts: 16006; Joined: 15 Apr 2004, 6:29 am

30 Apr 2013, 10:06 am

Tom - actually I think consumers do bear a responsibility to consider the ethical implications of their purchases. If you are not concerned, I guess that is between you and your maker, but does it ever worry you why some things are so cheap? What about child labour, indentured labour, forced labour etc.

It is clearly not direct responsibility for consumers, or for retailers, in this particular case. But there is such a thing as due diligence, and we should be wary of the combination of the race to the bottom and widespread corruption.

The owner of the building is responsible. The companies that did tell employees it was safe and would sack them if they didn't go in are responsible. If any public authority has turned out to have looked away as regulations were flouted then they are responsible.

However, I would wonder why it's ok for our companies to wash their hands on the practices of companies that they hire to make goods (often branded in their name). The constant demand to seek cheaper suppliers and improve or maintain margins is at some point going to lead to corners being cut.

: bbauska; Administrator; Posts: 7463; Joined: 26 Jun 2000, 1:13 pm

30 Apr 2013, 10:49 am

The business has the same choice as Tom does. It is a decision between them and their Maker. The business must consider the consumer purchaser as well.

: GMTom; Administrator; Posts: 11284; Joined: 14 Feb 2000, 8:40 am

30 Apr 2013, 11:42 am

ah, but I do consider where I buy some things and the evil walmart is not used very often. But when I do go there and buy something, it is not something I feel i should look into where that particular item was made, by whom, what their pay is...not my concern. This would be more a concern of my country allowing or not allowing products to be purchased from such places. I do not like walmart (and their ilk) because of their shipping things offshore to save a penny, I do not like how they take advantage of their workers, I do not like much about them but my reasons for not shopping there (often) do not go down to the details as indicated here. I also don't think the ramifications are between "me and my maker" that would imply God was going to damn me for shopping at Walmart, nope, workers in Bangladesh are simply not my concern!

: GMTom; Administrator; Posts: 11284; Joined: 14 Feb 2000, 8:40 am

30 Apr 2013, 11:45 am

and if nobody shopped at walmart, what would these people in Bangladesh do? Working for peanuts is probably better than working for nothing at all? This does help prop them up slightly and get them on their way. Just look at China now as compared to say 20 years ago, a world of difference with a growing middle class that did not exist long ago, my buying cheap socks may have helped them after all?

: danivon; Ambassador; Posts: 16006; Joined: 15 Apr 2004, 6:29 am

30 Apr 2013, 12:47 pm

bbauska wrote:The business has the same choice as Tom does. It is a decision between them and their Maker. The business must consider the consumer purchaser as well.

Well, yes, as long as it's an informed choice. The thing about choice (and those who shrug at stuff and say , "well, it was their choice") is how free it is, and how informed it is determines whether it really is a choice.

One of the big pieces of information when buying goods (or commissioning their making) is the price. The lower the price, the more you should question what leads to it being so.

GMTom wrote:I also don't think the ramifications are between "me and my maker" that would imply God was going to damn me for shopping at Walmart, nope, workers in Bangladesh are simply not my concern!

Ah, well, I'm no expert and there are many interpretations of Christianity, but I was lead to believe that God was quite concerned about how we treated each other as people - Matthew 25:31-46 is explicity about Jesus damning people because they did not care for 'the least of these'.

Luckily, as an atheist I don't need to worry about that, but it certainly does prick at my conscience that people are working in terrible conditions just to make cheap good slightly cheaper (while people who could do the same work here are unemployed and smeared for it).

GMTom wrote:Just look at China now as compared to say 20 years ago, a world of difference with a growing middle class that did not exist long ago, my buying cheap socks may have helped them after all?

Sure - well, it helped the party apparatchiks who make up the middle class, not so much their employees. Your dedication to helping the Chinese Communist Party fulfilling their long term plans must fill you with patriotic pride!

GMTom wrote:and if nobody shopped at walmart, what would these people in Bangladesh do? Working for peanuts is probably better than working for nothing at all? This does help prop them up slightly and get them on their way.

"and if nobody bought cotton from slave plantations, what would the Negroes do? Working for room and board is probably better than not working at all? This does help prop them up slightly and get them on their way once they've been manumissioned" (shameless, yes, but where do you draw the line?)

: rickyp; Statesman; Posts: 11324; Joined: 15 Aug 2000, 8:59 am

30 Apr 2013, 2:40 pm

tom

I also don't think the ramifications are between "me and my maker" that would imply God was going to damn me for shopping at Walmart, nope, workers in Bangladesh are simply not my concern!

Jesus disagrees with you Tom.

Mark 10:21-22 Jesus, looking at him, loved him and said, "You lack one thing; go, sell what you own, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me." When he heard this, he was shocked and went away grieving, for he had many possessions.
Mark 12:41-44 He sat down opposite the treasury, and watched the crowd putting money into the treasury. Many rich people put in large sums. 42 A poor widow came and put in two small copper coins, which are worth a penny. 43 Then he called his disciples and said to them, "Truly I tell you, this poor widow has put in more than all those who are contributing to the treasury. 44 For all of them have contributed out of their abundance; but she out of her poverty has put in everything she had, all she had to live on."
Luke 14:12-14 He said also to the one who had invited him, "When you give a luncheon or a dinner, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your relatives or rich neighbors, in case they may invite you in return, and you would be repaid. But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, and the blind. And you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you, for you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous."
Luke 16:19-25 "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate lay a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who longed to satisfy his hunger with what fell from the rich man's table; even the dogs would come and lick his sores. The poor man died and was carried away by the angels to be with Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried.
In Hades, where he was being tormented, he looked up and saw Abraham far away with Lazarus by his side. He called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in agony in these flames.' But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your lifetime you received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in agony.
Luke 11:39-42 Then the Lord said to him, "Now you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness. You fools! Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also? So give for alms those things that are within; and see, everything will be clean for you. "But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and herbs of all kinds, and neglect justice and the love of God.
Luke 12:16-21 Then he told them a parable: "The land of a rich man produced abundantly. And he thought to himself, 'What should I do, for I have no place to store my crops?' Then he said, 'I will do this: I will pull down my barns and build larger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods. And I will say to my soul, 'Soul, you have ample goods laid up for many years; relax, eat, drink, be merry.' But God said to him, 'You fool! This very night your life is being demanded of you. And the things you have prepared, whose will they be?' So it is with those who store up treasures for themselves but are not rich toward God."
Matthew 25:34-36 Then the king will say to those at his right hand, "Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me."

: bbauska; Administrator; Posts: 7463; Joined: 26 Jun 2000, 1:13 pm

30 Apr 2013, 3:08 pm

Care to try to analyze these verses for us, RickyP?

: geojanes; Dignitary; Posts: 3536; Joined: 02 Oct 2000, 9:01 am

30 Apr 2013, 7:31 pm

Come on fellas. Is this the bible study thread?

: bbauska; Administrator; Posts: 7463; Joined: 26 Jun 2000, 1:13 pm

30 Apr 2013, 7:46 pm

Ahhh shucks. I wanted to hear his attempts at analysis of a subject he doesn't know much about.

: freeman2; Dignitary; Posts: 1573; Joined: 19 Dec 2000, 4:40 pm

01 May 2013, 1:22 am

There is a distinction between legal and moral responsibility here. At some point in the chain that starts with the owner of the factory there is a cut-off in legal responsibility. This of course depends on the laws of the local country, though we could also argue that legal responsibility should be shifted further outward. But we presumably agree that legal (criminal/civil) responsibility cuts off with those persons whose decisions directly led to those workers going back into those factories.
Moral responsibility, however, extends in a causal chain to everyone who benefits from workers being exploited. The farther out you go the less there is moral responsibility, with the consumer having less moral responsibility. And of course a person has to have knowledge of the exploitation to be held responsible. So, yeah, if a consumer buys something and they know that they are benefitting financially from the abuse/exploitation of workers then they may be acting immorally. A consumer could make a reasonable determination that a worker in a foreign country is better off from their purchase; I would think that it would be more difficult to justify if workers were being subjected to dangerous working conditions, however.
It is interesting to note that Western companies almost invariably suffer brand damage when their products are linked to low wage labor. I would imagine that if every product carried with it the labor costs of making the product, many consumers would refuse to buy products made with low-wage labor. Consumers are typically not informed about the exploitation that led to a product being priced so low. I suspect if consumers had such knowledge, demand for products that did not carry such baggage would rise. Getting consumers knowledge so that they can make a completely informed choice is crucial

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Offshoring - do we outsource responsibility?