Because I don't think the number is so small
If we all know of examples, that number is pretty darned huge.

Made up numbers...
of 100 people on welfare now
If we can get say 30 of them working, find that 20 of them are "disabled", find that 40 of them fit the new temporary "deserving" label, and we give 10 of them the shaft
That works for me.

The lefty's who insist nobody can suffer, it's better to spend scads on all and deal with the abuse than to let a single person slip through the net, that doesn't work for me. The net should never have been put in place to start with if you ask me.

rickyp wrote:steve

Since there are no studies to suggest this is true, I'll have to classify this as "anecdotal

."

You think you need studies to suggest that the intensive, long and specilized education and training received by individuals who train to be physicians makes them better qualified and more able to accurately diagnose illness in patients than the man in the street? (Represented by you in this debate)

I am not "a man in the street." I've probably had to observe, control, and avoid being killed by more disturbed individuals than an average psych sees over the course of his entire career.

Beyond my experience, LOOK at the list of symptoms. It is very subjective. You may not like that. It doesn't negate it.

GMTom wrote:Made up numbers...
of 100 people on welfare now
If we can get say 30 of them working, find that 20 of them are "disabled", find that 40 of them fit the new temporary "deserving" label, and we give 10 of them the shaft
That works for me.

Yes, well, I suppose you would say that, unless you know one of those ten (or it happened to be a future you).

The lefty's who insist nobody can suffer, it's better to spend scads on all and deal with the abuse than to let a single person slip through the net, that doesn't work for me. The net should never have been put in place to start with if you ask me.

So, before the net was in place, how were things? All hunky dory?

Doctor Fate wrote:I am not "a man in the street." I've probably had to observe, control, and avoid being killed by more disturbed individuals than an average psych sees over the course of his entire career.

So, you are saying that you are indeed a better judge of medical matters than a doctor? Doctors don't spend a lot of time looking at people who claim to be ill? And specialists in mental conditions don't spend a lot of time with people claiming to be or claimed to be having mental problems?

Beyond my experience, LOOK at the list of symptoms. It is very subjective. You may not like that. It doesn't negate it.

A lot of symptoms are subjective. Pain, the main symptom for many conditions, is completely subjective. I'm sure you've seen pain. But I'm not sure that means you are better at judging the level of it in others than someone who spends their career dealing people saying they are in pain.

I expect that you are better at dealing with criminal suspects that the average doctor.

danivon wrote:So, you are saying that you are indeed a better judge of medical matters than a doctor?

Not falling for this. Please define "medical matters."

Doctors don't spend a lot of time looking at people who claim to be ill?

I suspect, based on my experience with doctors--psychiatrists and psychologists in particular--that they are rarely responsible for physically stopping suicides and homicides. I also suspect they are rarely surrounded with scores (or more) of those diagnosed as having psychological troubles of one sort or another.

And specialists in mental conditions don't spend a lot of time with people claiming to be or claimed to be having mental problems?

It's a matter of scale. You can make whatever arguments you like.

A lot of symptoms are subjective. Pain, the main symptom for many conditions, is completely subjective.

Not completely.

However, the symptoms for depression are almost completely subjective. Furthermore, they are pretty easily faked. You can't fake cancer. You can't fake any number of diseases. Depression? I think I could coach most anyone through it and get them on disability in short order.

Doctor Fate wrote:

danivon wrote:So, you are saying that you are indeed a better judge of medical matters than a doctor?

Not falling for this. Please define "medical matters."

Diagnosis of a medical condition. It's what we are discussing. What did you think I meant?

Doctors don't spend a lot of time looking at people who claim to be ill?

I suspect, based on my experience with doctors--psychiatrists and psychologists in particular--that they are rarely responsible for physically stopping suicides and homicides. I also suspect they are rarely surrounded with scores (or more) of those diagnosed as having psychological troubles of one sort or another.[/quote]Maybe not. That doesn't mean that they are worse than you at determining the

Not completely.

Doctors do not do MRI scans for everyone who presents with pain. It would be ridiculously expensive.

danivon wrote:

Doctor Fate wrote:

danivon wrote:So, you are saying that you are indeed a better judge of medical matters than a doctor?

Not falling for this. Please define "medical matters."

Diagnosis of a medical condition. It's what we are discussing. What did you think I meant?

I am not discussing all medical matters. Depression is a particularly thorny one because it is so subjective.

Doctors don't spend a lot of time looking at people who claim to be ill?

Doctors do not do MRI scans for everyone who presents with pain. It would be ridiculously expensive.

Not my point. You said it was "completely" subjective. It's measurable to some extent, therefore not "completely" subjective.

So, before the net was in place, how were things? All hunky dory?

Nope
But is it any better at all now?
Nope
..so why spend the billions to see no difference?


and that depression issue, my ANECDOTE fits well here, my two (ex)neighbors both came down with depression at the same time, gee how coincidental the two laziest people anyone could know managed that?

Steve

It's measurable to some extent, therefore not "completely" subjective

.

How is pain measured?

rickyp wrote:Steve

It's measurable to some extent, therefore not "completely" subjective

.

How is pain measured?

There are two scientific methods:

1. MRI's as I listed above.
2. The quantity of your posts read.

magnetic resonace imaging does not measure pain.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional ... ce_imaging

http://www.partnersagainstpain.com/meas ... -tool.aspx

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pain_measurement

Pain is measured entirely on subjective scales. A few of them are attached.

Depressed?

rickyp wrote:magnetic resonace imaging does not measure pain.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional ... ce_imaging

http://www.partnersagainstpain.com/meas ... -tool.aspx

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pain_measurement

Pain is measured entirely on subjective scales. A few of them are attached.

Depressed?

Only that you didn't read the link I posted that showed otherwise.

Only that you didn't read the link I posted that showed otherwise

I read it. On June 7 2009, it reported that "for the first time" and that doctors "may have found a way".
Its strictly experimental, and not yet proven. And certainly not used in practice anywhere. First because it would be supremely expensive, and second because a protocol for the use of a procedure is usually years after the laboratory work has established a useful procedure....
You're quoting as if MRIs are in regular use for this purpose. And thats a totally false representation.

Which means that the only diagnostic methods open to doctors to measure pain are subjective scales and observation..
And yet you say this about pain:

It's measurable to some extent, therefore not "completely" subjective.

Indicating the extent of your medical knowledge and your inability to grasp the content of the very article you quote on MRI's use in "measuring pain".

Doctors have the same diagnostic techniques to measure depression as they have for pain. Subjective scales and observation.
And yet you feel that doctors are some how doing a goood job measuring one and not the other.
But all we have to go on for that is your claims to personal prowess.

Depression may indeed be a difficult diagnosis. The chemistry of the brain, and the workings of the brain are still far from understood. But I'll go with the trained medical personnel over your kind of expertise or more of Toms anecdotes. (Tom, often severly depressed people do suffer from an inability to physically function, appearing lazy as a result. )

If they are severely depressed and can't function after taking their happy pills, then they suffer, does them not working help them any more? By allowing them to stay home, does that make them feel better? and even if it does, guess what, I would feel better if I could stay home, I have to work. I am in favor of assisting them to a point, help get them some happy pills, maybe have them see a shrink, but if they are able bodied, then they go to work.

Feeling sorry for yourself is no excuse to not just not work ...that's their business, but not to collect welfare, that becomes our business. Or better yet, ship them off to Canada, let you guys take care of our too lazy, too depressed to work.

rickyp wrote:

Only that you didn't read the link I posted that showed otherwise

I read it. On June 7 2009, it reported that "for the first time" and that doctors "may have found a way".
Its strictly experimental, and not yet proven. And certainly not used in practice anywhere.

Oh yeah, forgot--you hate science.

You're quoting as if MRIs are in regular use for this purpose. And thats a totally false representation.

That is as false a representation as anyone has ever made. In fact, it's a lie. I never said they were in regular use, nor did I imply it.

Which means that the only diagnostic methods open to doctors to measure pain are subjective scales and observation..

So, you KNOW MRI's cannot show pain? Wow! I was not aware you are a medical doctor.

It's measurable to some extent, therefore not "completely" subjective.

Indicating the extent of your medical knowledge and your inability to grasp the content of the very article you quote on MRI's use in "measuring pain".

You're a moron. If pain exists at all, then only its extent is subjective. Pain in and of itself is objective.

Let me illustrate. If you were standing in front of me and I put a roundhouse into your eye socket, would it hurt? If you think not, perhaps a laboratory experiment is in order?

Now, the extent of it could be subjective. We'll have to wait until you wake up and ask.

Of course, that is all as a matter of illustration.

Doctors have the same diagnostic techniques to measure depression as they have for pain. Subjective scales and observation.
And yet you feel that doctors are some how doing a goood job measuring one and not the other.
But all we have to go on for that is your claims to personal prowess.

This is your problem: Depression can be faked; many episodes of pain CANNOT be. For example, when an athlete's leg is snapped (think Theismann), only an idiot would think it doesn't hurt. His tolerance for pain, his body's ability to supply adrenalin and other hormones, and conditioning may keep it from immediately causing him to pass out, but it hurts.

On the other hand, what can be demonstrated about Depression? People get depressed. The question is how do we know when Depression sets in?

The answer is necessarily subjective.

With pain, only a fool would say it is entirely subjective. We can prove certain stimuli cause pain. We cannot prove that any given stimuli cause Depression. The proposed measurements are guesswork--and are infrequently done. By your own standards, Depression is less provable than pain.

Depression may indeed be a difficult diagnosis. The chemistry of the brain, and the workings of the brain are still far from understood. But I'll go with the trained medical personnel over your kind of expertise or more of Toms anecdotes. (Tom, often severly depressed people do suffer from an inability to physically function, appearing lazy as a result. )

Pain is not difficult to diagnose. Often its cause may be observed. If there is no apparent cause, sometimes testing may reveal the cause. It is certain that in almost all cases some medications will reduce pain.

With Depression, it is vague and subjective. Medication may or may not work. It may even make the situation worse.

Btw, severely lazy people may appear depressed as a means of furthering their laziness.