I have to say that I'm liking this guy more and more. Part of me was hoping that one of you could talk me out of voting for him. I feel guilty admitting that I like him. I've already predicted this before but I think we're headed toward a Trump v Berndog horserace.

If that is the case, as of today I'm leaning on voting for Trump if only for a 4 year experiment of what the country might look like with a guy who can not be purchased.

It's the experiment that is enticing me.

dag hammarsjkold wrote:I have to say that I'm liking this guy more and more. Part of me was hoping that one of you could talk me out of voting for him. I feel guilty admitting that I like him. I've already predicted this before but I think we're headed toward a Trump v Berndog horserace.

If that is the case, as of today I'm leaning on voting for Trump if only for a 4 year experiment of what the country might look like with a guy who can not be purchased.

It's the experiment that is enticing me.

What will the world look like after 4 more years of a narcissistic egomaniac as POTUS?

dag hammarsjkold wrote:I have to say that I'm liking this guy more and more. Part of me was hoping that one of you could talk me out of voting for him. I feel guilty admitting that I like him.

You should. He is appealing to your basest instincts. He appeals to people who are going with their gut and not their head. But Dag, how do you square the "I'd bomb the shit out of ISIS" circle? It's so easy and comforting to think that ISIS can be corralled and removed, but that's just not reality. It means indiscriminate killing. You OK with that?

geojanes wrote:

dag hammarsjkold wrote:I have to say that I'm liking this guy more and more. Part of me was hoping that one of you could talk me out of voting for him. I feel guilty admitting that I like him.

You should. He is appealing to your basest instincts. He appeals to people who are going with their gut and not their head. But Dag, how do you square the "I'd bomb the shit out of ISIS" circle? It's so easy and comforting to think that ISIS can be corralled and removed, but that's just not reality. It means indiscriminate killing. You OK with that?

And, he's also said he would let Iran and/or Russia deal with ISIS.

The truth is Trump is all over the map on most issues. All we know for sure is:

1. We're going to win so much we'll be sick of winning.
2. Mexico is going to pay for the wall and it's going to be a great wall.
3. China, Japan, Mexico, and all other countries are going to lose a lot of money because Trump is going to negotiate the *bleep* out of them.
4. We're going to have universal healthcare and it's going to be much better than Obamacare.
5. Our vets are going to be well taken care of.
6. Putin and Trump are going skiing together.

Geo wrote:

It's so easy and comforting to think that ISIS can be corralled and removed, but that's just not reality. It means indiscriminate killing. You OK with that?

Of course not. I can't have that. Nor do I think he will actually follow through on this particular threat. Not only do I agree with your statement quoted above but I think ISIS is here to stay. ISIS and all the other radical Muslim groups are here to stay unfortunately. The more we kill the more we supply for the future. They are on a par with the so called "war on drugs." All we can do is continue to stay a step or two ahead of them I suppose and hopefully mitigate their ability to cause suffering.

I also agree with Fate that Trump is all over the place. I think he's telling us whatever it is we want to hear for now. Once he's in I hope he will move more toward the center as he realizes just how hard it is to get any kind of deal done in Washington or on the world stage. He's said before that he is attempting to win an election and I think this explains his rather cavalier attitude on the bombastic remarks he's made on various topics/other candidates.

When Trump called Jeb out on his brother keeping us safe I must say I had to agree. 911 happened under W's watch. I'm not placing the blame on the guy but it happened on his watch so to say we were safe as a result of W is a bit of a stretch. Furthermore, it was nice to hear someone on a national stage say with vigor that the Iraq war was a mistake, that W knew Saddam didn't have WMDs, that the war was based on a lie, and that it in no way, shape or form benefitted us. On the contrary, it was a war that resulted in thousands dead and wounded including our own and in my opinion, contributed to the increased destabilization of the middle east.

The Berndog strikes me as more human than Trump but again, you have another extreme candidate promising the moon at the moment. Would he actually succeed at getting anything done? Would anyone in Washington, Democrat or Republican, want to face their constituents down the road and have to explain why they worked with the Berndog? That strikes me as political suicide. The same question applies to Trump as well.

The Berndog's compassion for the underdog is his greatest attribute. That's why I like him. His campaign really feels like its grass roots. There's something genuine to that. Trump's business instinct is perhaps his. And his campaign feels grass roots as well.

Either way we go, Trump or Berndog, the country will be looking down the barrel of our own version of extremism.

No matter the direction the country heads, there is something about shaking up the status quo that appeals to me. Seeing the RNC/GOP lose control is deeply satisfying. Watching voters from one state after the next send an undeniable message to the Republicans that we want nothing to do with you, you've failed, your track record is deplorable, we know you are liars, cheats and brigands, your services are no longer needed, etc....is nothing short of refreshing to say the least.

If only for 4 years it may be worth it just for entertainment value.

Maybe I'll vote for both.

dag

Either way we go, Trump or Berndog, the country will be looking down the barrel of our own version of extremism.

Which of Sanders policies do you consider extreme? Medicare for all? Regulating the financial institutions better? Breaking up the banks before they are too big to fail?


I think you can point to some individual statements and policies of Trumps that are extreme. Mostly he's just appealing to nativist bigotry, (the wall and deporting 11 million) .. and offering vague promises with no substance. But now that Cruz is going after his apparent appreciation for Planned parenthood's role in women's health, and other "Liberal" policies ...how does he fit any label ? Other than a mess. An extreme mess.
If he can get the nomination with between 30 and 40% of most primaries.... it will lead to a complete review and renovation of the primary system.

I saw an interview of an evangelical pastor down in South Carolina. I want to say he has a radio show. Anyway, he said when he brings up that Trump has only recently changed his position on abortion and that he is not a real conservative what he keeps hearing from people is that they are angry and that Trump is going to go to Washington and shake things up.

I suspect that the root cause of the anger on both the left and right is anger over the economy. Do you have money to support your family. Can you afford to live in a safe neighborhood and have your kids go to good schools. Can you afford to pay for your kids to go to college. Can your kids get good jobs. Can you afford to have a comfortable retirement. Can you afford to retire when you're 65. What each side thinks is causing the economic problems is different, but clearly each side thinks the establishment is not able (or unwilling) to solve the problems .

freeman3 wrote:I saw an interview of an evangelical pastor down in South Carolina. I want to say he has a radio show. Anyway, he said when he brings up that Trump has only recently changed his position on abortion and that he is not a real conservative what he keeps hearing from people is that they are angry and that Trump is going to go to Washington and shake things up.

I suspect that the root cause of the anger on both the left and right is anger over the economy. Do you have money to support your family. Can you afford to live in a safe neighborhood and have your kids go to good schools. Can you afford to pay for your kids to go to college. Can your kids get good jobs. Can you afford to have a comfortable retirement. Can you afford to retire when you're 65. What each side thinks is causing the economic problems is different, but clearly each side thinks the establishment is not able (or unwilling) to solve the problems .

It's people who are not listening who are supporting Trump. Trump could, as he boasted, shoot someone on 5th Ave and he would lose no support. The only way to stop him is to winnow the field. He only has 35% support. That means 65% are not supporting him.

Now, imagine the economy is THE issue. Clinton is running to be Obama's third term. More Obamanomics!

What a nightmare.

Well, I can't imagine Trump voters are sending him to Washington because they think he will get rid of gay marriage or abortion. I doubt that Trump voters are not aware at this point about his inconsistent positions...they just don't care. When Trump said he was building a wall to keep the Mexicans out he signaled that he was on the side of white voters concerned about minorities/ poor taking over the government and using it to benefit minorities and/or the poor at the expense of hard-working (white) Americans. The Republican establishment in those voters' eyes failed to stop Obama. They think Trump is strong enough and tough enough to do it.

I still think Rubio can pull it out because he is the least disliked . But it won't be easy. Trump does seem to pick up votes from other candidates and it only becomes problematic for him in a two-man race according to these poll numbers from North Carolina.
http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/main/donald-trump/

freeman3 wrote:I still think Rubio can pull it out because he is the least disliked . But it won't be easy. Trump does seem to pick up votes from other candidates and it only becomes problematic for him in a two-man race according to these poll numbers from North Carolina.
http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/main/donald-trump/

I agree. And, it's early. We're still in proportional states.

However, the polls in South Carolina are a mess. It's hard to tell anything--except that Trump seems to have 35% or more of the vote. If Bush is 3rd, he'll stay in. If Kasich doesn't get stomped, he'll stay in. Cruz will stay. Carson is refusing to see how cooked he is.

If the field remains larger than 3 for much longer, Trump may just get the nomination. We'll have a xenophobic populist running against a socialist.

freeman

I suspect that the root cause of the anger on both the left and right is anger over the economy. Do you have money to support your family. Can you afford to live in a safe neighborhood and have your kids go to good schools. Can you afford to pay for your kids to go to college. Can your kids get good jobs. Can you afford to have a comfortable retirement. Can you afford to retire when you're 65. What each side thinks is causing the economic problems is different, but clearly each side thinks the establishment is not able (or unwilling) to solve the problems .

The anger is not "the economy. The economy is going fairly well.
The anger is over inequality. And the fact that the economy is not benefiting the working class or middles class the way it once did.
Trump offers little of substance to combat this inequality and offers up Mexicans as scapegoats, and empty promises of an easy fix. The longer the campaign the harder to sustain his fraud.

fate

The only way to stop him is to winnow the field. He only has 35% support. That means 65% are not supporting him.

He's got 45% support in Nevada... That's scary.
Who's dropping out? and where is their support going?

rickyp wrote:freeman

I suspect that the root cause of the anger on both the left and right is anger over the economy. Do you have money to support your family. Can you afford to live in a safe neighborhood and have your kids go to good schools. Can you afford to pay for your kids to go to college. Can your kids get good jobs. Can you afford to have a comfortable retirement. Can you afford to retire when you're 65. What each side thinks is causing the economic problems is different, but clearly each side thinks the establishment is not able (or unwilling) to solve the problems .

The anger is not "the economy. The economy is going fairly well.
The anger is over inequality. And the fact that the economy is not benefiting the working class or middles class the way it once did.
Trump offers little of substance to combat this inequality and offers up Mexicans as scapegoats, and empty promises of an easy fix. The longer the campaign the harder to sustain his fraud.

No one who actually lives IN the economy thinks it's going fairly well. Jobs are not easy to get, unless you want to flip burgers.

fate

The only way to stop him is to winnow the field. He only has 35% support. That means 65% are not supporting him.

He's got 45% support in Nevada... That's scary.

It's a gambling state. They are more anti-government than most. I think Nevada is a State where torches and pitchforks seem a sensible idea.

Who's dropping out? and where is their support going?

Most of it won't go to Trump. As for who is dropping out, depends on South Carolina. If it's Trump, Cruz, and then Rubio/Bush/Kasich all bunched, no one will drop out. If it's Trump, Rubio, Cruz, Bush, Bush will drop out. If Kasich finishes badly enough, he might drop out.

Rickyp asked:

Which of Sanders policies do you consider extreme? Medicare for all? Regulating the financial institutions better? Breaking up the banks before they are too big to fail?

The one that really gets me is his promise of free tuition for college students. This is never going to happen and he's knows it. I can't even say this promise is ambitious. It's just a downright lie and play to young people.

dag

The one that really gets me is his promise of free tuition for college students. This is never going to happen and he's knows it. I can't even say this promise is ambitious. It's just a downright lie and play to young people

This is extreme? Its not like its untried or untested or doesn't exist in other countries.
And its not like the US couldn't afford it if budget priorities were different. Apparently priorities are exactly the opposite, and thats whats pricing university out of many young peoples reach.
(What this does to the competence of the labor force and the competitiveness of the economy is problematic.)

The more subtle problem with charging tuition is that it has changed the cost structure of higher education. Traditionally most colleges other than for-profits get revenue from public subsidies and private philanthropy as well as tuition. According to a 2009 study by the Delta Cost Project, a primary reason that state colleges have been increasing tuition by such whopping increments—5 percent a year, after inflation, over the past decade—is that they’re losing state revenue, and shifting costs toward students. Unlike other areas in our economy, higher education hasn’t exactly been a model of efficiency or innovation. As costs rise, colleges have responded by raising tuition bills, allowing federal and private student loans, as well as family piggy banks, to absorb the difference.

http://college.monster.com/news/article ... ree?page=2

What he's promising and what he can deliver are indeed two different things. You seem to be willing to excuse and forget Trumps BS promises and expect him to govern differently. But not Bernie?
Maybe because Bernie is actually sincere? Authentic? And Trumps is pure BS? And that's his attraction?
Either candidate will face the reality of the political landscape after the election. In a system that was originally designed around the notion of constant compromise, there is little to none existent in Washington now. If Bernie gets elected without a majority in the House and a super majority in the Senate much of what he espouses has no chance.
Trump on the other hand, even if he had majorities, would face something even more difficult for many of his bombastic promises... Reality.