bbauska wrote:Been Wanting to answer this all evening, but was at the fair with the family. Anyway... Here is my answer back to you.

First off, All people matter, but the reasons influencing does not. I can see why you might want to think otherwise, but it was not meant anyway other than that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout
SWAT eventually arrived bearing sufficient firepower, and they commandeered an armored truck to evacuate the wounded. Several officers also appropriated AR-15 rifles from a nearby firearms dealer. The incident sparked debate on the need for patrol officers to upgrade their capabilities in similar situations in the future.

Does every place need this tool? No. Is it over utilized? Dang right it is, and I have said so before.

danivon wrote:

Doctor Fate wrote:We learned of Mr. Peel, lo, those many years ago.

#2 is the key. The only people who should "fear" the police are crooks. But, the citizenry should "respect" the police--because of their actions and attitudes, but also because they put their lives on the line every day to protect and better the community.

You misunderstand Peel, and the nature of respect. If the police do not adopt an attitude or take actions worthy of respect, then they do not deserve it. Yes, they put their lives on the line, but if they are also endangering lives, it will be diluted somewhat.

For some reason, others just want to talk about the incident.

Doctor Fate wrote:

danivon wrote:

Doctor Fate wrote:We learned of Mr. Peel, lo, those many years ago.

#2 is the key. The only people who should "fear" the police are crooks. But, the citizenry should "respect" the police--because of their actions and attitudes, but also because they put their lives on the line every day to protect and better the community.

You misunderstand Peel, and the nature of respect. If the police do not adopt an attitude or take actions worthy of respect, then they do not deserve it. Yes, they put their lives on the line, but if they are also endangering lives, it will be diluted somewhat.

Meh, address your concerns to the 1% of cops who do this.

For some reason, others just want to talk about the incident.

Because it is (allegedly) what touched off rioting and sent the media scurrying to Ferguson, an otherwise forgotten backwater.

danivon wrote:What concerns me is that they are enabled by the complicity of other cops, including their bosses.

And it is surely a concern for all of us if there are members of the police force are not behaving in a way that undermines public respect for the police. Because we all lose if that goes, don't we?

Oh, it is what set off the rioting - unless you can find evidence of rioting before the incident or afterwards for another reason?

You were the one who said "I hope no one has been speculating about what happened. No one knows yet if the officer was justified in the use of force. He may have been; he may not have been. However, none of us has heard enough to know."

I agree. We don't know and are not in a position to know. Speculating about the incident itself was not my intent in starting the thread - I was prompted by the rioting, the police methods to deal with it, and the statements of a particular libertarian-leaning Republican politician.

Meh, address your concerns to the 1% of cops who do this

Sometimes, like the moments leading up to when a police officer decides to shoot someone, transparency is an unalloyed good. And especially lately, technology has progressed to a point that it makes this kind of transparency not just possible, but routine.
So it is in Rialto, Calif., where an entire police force is wearing so-called body-mounted cameras, no bigger than pagers, that record everything that transpires between officers and citizens. In the first year after the cameras' introduction, the use of force by officers declined 60%, and citizen complaints against police fell 88%.

Body cameras also promise police greater protection from false claims of misconduct. The International Association of Chiefs of Police (IACP) surveyed thousands of officers on the effectiveness of in-car cameras. The data revealed that officers accused of misconduct were exonerated 93 percent of the time when a dashboard camera recorded their interactions. A majority of agencies that used in-car cameras reported that officers were exonerated more frequently when there was video evidence.

Doctor Fate wrote:

danivon wrote:What concerns me is that they are enabled by the complicity of other cops, including their bosses.

What concerns me is that you are making hypothetical allegations.

And it is surely a concern for all of us if there are members of the police force are not behaving in a way that undermines public respect for the police. Because we all lose if that goes, don't we?

More hypotheticals.

It's really tough to bat down "what ifs." I guess I should dub this "whatiffery."

Oh, it is what set off the rioting - unless you can find evidence of rioting before the incident or afterwards for another reason?

Yet, it was primarily people from outside the area. In fact, some professional do-badders flew in to stir up trouble. The Black Panthers were there calling for lynching the officer.

You were the one who said "I hope no one has been speculating about what happened. No one knows yet if the officer was justified in the use of force. He may have been; he may not have been. However, none of us has heard enough to know."

I agree. We don't know and are not in a position to know. Speculating about the incident itself was not my intent in starting the thread - I was prompted by the rioting, the police methods to deal with it, and the statements of a particular libertarian-leaning Republican politician.

The police made a hash of it. It's just not something a backwater PD is used to handling and they showed they were not ready.

rickyp wrote:fate

Meh, address your concerns to the 1% of cops who do this

.
How do you know its 1%?

The problem with police interaction with civilians is that very often any altercation can result in charges and accusations . Both against the civilian and the police officer. And it becomes a he said/ she said arguement . And of course either could lie.

So how you get to 1% is a guess isn't it?

When personal video recorders by police forces have been used something interesting happens. The use of force by police goes dowwn, and the complaints go down. This sggests that when officers know there is a record of their actions they act differently.
Which makes me think that your 1% is optimistic.

danivon wrote:

Doctor Fate wrote:

danivon wrote:What concerns me is that they are enabled by the complicity of other cops, including their bosses.

What concerns me is that you are making hypothetical allegations.

Not really. If you like I can find examples. Let's start with whoever decided that Ferguson needed a stockpile of military equipment for police officers.

And it is surely a concern for all of us if there are members of the police force are not behaving in a way that undermines public respect for the police. Because we all lose if that goes, don't we?

More hypotheticals.

It's really tough to bat down "what ifs." I guess I should dub this "whatiffery."

Again, if you like I can find examples of the police who do exceed their authority. And often get away with it.

Oh, it is what set off the rioting - unless you can find evidence of rioting before the incident or afterwards for another reason?

Yet, it was primarily people from outside the area. In fact, some professional do-badders flew in to stir up trouble. The Black Panthers were there calling for lynching the officer.

So they did this before the incident? Or completely unrelated to the incident? Pshaw.

So in what way should they have been more prepared, given they had snipers, APVs etc. Tanks?

So how you get to 1% is a guess isn't it?

Danivon's point was about officers who are "behaving in a way that undermines public respect for the police."
It's not a guess. I've been there. Are there knuckleheads and losers? Yup. We have to hire from the human race. But, the number of overly-aggressive, nearly-sociopath cops is very small.

When personal video recorders by police forces have been used something interesting happens. The use of force by police goes dowwn, and the complaints go down. This sggests that when officers know there is a record of their actions they act differently.
Which makes me think that your 1% is optimistic

Too small of a sample size to be conclusive.

It's not a guess. I've been there

Police in Albuquerque, home to slightly over half a million people, have shot 23 civilians dead since 2010: more than in many comparable cities. No police officer has been prosecuted for unlawful killing, yet the city has had to pay out $24m in legal settlements to victims’ relatives.

According to HPD records, officer John Woods racked up 14 sustained complaints in 15 years without getting fired. Woods received a four-day suspension for failing to notify a supervisor of another employee’s criminal act; a one-day suspension for taking pictures of his ex-wife’s car at her workplace; a 10-day suspension for failing to renew his car’s registration despite a direct order to do so; a three-day suspension for giving his attorney an unfinished report of a major traffic accident that he’d been in while on duty; a one-day suspension for accidentally firing a Taser at a suspect he was handcuffing; and a six-day suspension for allowing a confrontation between two citizens to escalate until one had to be arrested, then lying about it. His longest suspension (as of June 2009, the date of his arbitration records) was 15 days. Woods received that punishment for using HPD computers to research a wanted suspect, then trying to collect a Crime Stoppers reward by feeding the information to investigators while posing as a citizen and “confidential informant.”

Officer Joseph Brashier already had 13 sustained complaints, including untruthfulness, when he violated his estranged wife’s restraining order seven times in less than three months. In lieu of firing Brashier, the department gave him a 90-day suspension and a “Last Chance Agreement,” which is exactly what it sounds like. Yet when Chief McClelland later tried to fire Brashier for an apparent illegal towing scheme, an arbitrator reduced his punishment to a 10-day suspension.

Officer Jaime Vera also signed a Last Chance Agreement after a domestic-violence incident that earned him a 60-day suspension. Yet three months later, when Vera was disciplined for sexually harassing a female officer, he received a 15-day suspension instead of being fired, because the sexual harassment occurred before Vera signed the Last Chance Agreement. Vera was eventually fired, but only after bribing a mechanic to help his car pass inspection, getting reported, removing the sticker and bribing a second mechanic on the same day. In this case, his arbitrator wrote, “his poor judgment transcended the realm of ‘unsound’ into the realm of ‘what in the world was he thinking.’”

Between 2007 and 2012, HPD officers were involved in 550 incidents in which either a citizen or animal was injured or killed by a police officer’s bullet, according to agency records.

Internal Affairs investigated each incident and determined that every single shooting was justified.

Some of these civilians were armed. Others weren’t. Mark Ames, 23, was unarmed and fleeing when he was shot and injured. Yoanis Vera, 26, was also unarmed when he was wounded. Kenneth Releford was unarmed, but HPD says he charged at an officer while keeping one hand behind his back. Releford, 38, was killed. All of those cases are from 2012.

Another citizen killed by HPD in 2012 was a wheelchair-bound man. Brian Claunch was mentally ill and had only one arm and one leg. Claunch was shot because he allegedly threatened an officer with a ballpoint pen.

Out of 706 complaints about excessive force, HPD disciplined only 15 officers. For 550 shootings, HPD disciplined none. The message is clear: Either Houston police almost never abuse their power, or they abuse it with impunity.

In the United States, investigation of cases of police brutality has often been left to internal police commissions and/or district attorneys (DAs). Internal police commissions have often been criticized for a lack of accountability and for bias favoring officers, as they frequently declare upon review that the officer(s) acted within the department's rules, or according to their training. For instance, an April, 2007 study of the Chicago Police Department found that out of more than 10,000 police abuse complaints filed between 2002 and 2003, only 19 (0.19%) resulted in meaningful disciplinary action. The study charges that the police department's oversight body allows officers with "criminal tendencies to operate with impunity," and argues that the Chicago Police Department should not be allowed to police itself.[29] Only 19% of large municipal police forces have a civilian complaint review board (CCRB). Law enforcement jurisdictions that have a CCRB have an excessive force complaint rate against their officers of 11.9% verses 6.6% complaint rate for those without a CCRB. Of those forces without a CCRB only 8% of the complaints were sustained.[30] Thus, for the year 2002, the rate at which police brutality complaints were sustained was 0.53% for the larger police municipalities nationwide.

April 2, 2005: Al Hixon was handcuffed, pepper-sprayed in his eyes and nostrils, and arrested by Golden Valley Police for robbery. While the 911 transcript reveals that the Golden Valley police had twice been informed that a white male in a white van had robbed a local bank, two Golden Valley police officers proceeded rapidly to a nearby gas station and arrested Mr. Hixon, a dark-skinned black man, who was refueling his Jaguar automobile. Despite being informed twice that the robber was white, the officers arrested Hixon for the crime. The charges were dropped when they realized their mistake. Hixon was awarded the largest police brutality punitive damages in Minnesota history by a jury. No discipline was taken against the officers.

October 20, 2006: Hope Steffey called 911 for help after being assaulted by her cousin. Deputies from the Stark County Sheriff's department arrived, arrested her and brought her into custody. There, she was stripped naked by both male and female deputies and left in a cold cell and without a blanket without medical attention for injuries sustained during the ordeal.[84] Deputies claimed that she had answered a series of questions in a way that led them to believe she was suicidal, a claim Steffey denied.[85] When the video was publicized, several women came forward, claiming abuse and harassment from deputies. In 2009, the county and sheriff's department settled lawsuits brought by Steffey and other women for $200,000. The Stark County Sheriff's Department denying any wrongdoing.

January 1, 2003: James Smoak was driving home to North Carolina with his wife, teenage son, and two mix breed bulldogs from a trip to Nashville. Smoak unknowingly left his wallet on his car hood after stopping at a gas station and a bystander called the police. The Cookeville police mistook this as a robbery, and with shotguns drawn, pulled the family over. Despite pleas to close the doors so the dogs would not get loose, the police ignored them and shot one dog that escaped. Smoak jumped and was violently shoved to the ground, causing permanent damage to his knee. They were held more than nine minutes in patrol cars after the officers realizes their mistake and are seen on the dashcameras laughing and smirking as the family cries. The family's lawsuit against the city was settled for $77,000 and they were awarded $9,000 in damages caused by the officer's use of excessive force on Smoak. The officers were not charged.

May 10, 2009: Christopher Harris was forced into a wall by King County Sheriff's Deputy Matt Paul after being mistaken for an assault suspect. According to Paul, Harris fled when he identified himself and ordered Harris to stop running. Witnesses contradicted that claim. A video showed Paul pushing Harris against the wall after Harris stopped, and mishandling Harris, who was unconscious by then. Harris was left brain damaged and paralyzed from the neck down. The King County Sheriff's Office claimed that Paul's actions were legal; prosecutors filed no charges. Harris's family filed a $25 million lawsuit against the County, which was settled for $10 million.[104]

August 30, 2010: John T. Williams, from Canada was shot dead by Seattle, Washington officer Ian Birk after Birk accosted Williams for carrying what turned out to be a street-legal, closed, knife. Birk confronted him, firing 5 shots at close range, four hitting Williams. Birk claimed Williams had turned with the allegedly open knife and lunged at him, but multiple witnesses on the street contradicted his account. Birks' actions were ruled unjustified and against his training by the Seattle Police Department. Birk was allowed to resign rather than be fired, and King County prosecutor, Dan Satterberg, declined to prosecute. The city settled with the Williams mother for $1.5 million.

rickyp wrote:So, a full year of use by all of the police in Rialto is too small sample but
you, a sample of one ..
thats dead accurate?

danivon wrote:First, Alberquerque, NM:

http://www.economist.com/news/united-st ... ng-and-bad

Two local neighborhoods made that website's "Top 25 Most Dangerous Neighborhoods in America" list, which was ranked according to the crime rate per 1,000 residents and based on 2011 census tracts and population data from the U.S. Census Bureau as well as violent crime statistics from the FBI, the U.S. Department of Justice and thousands of local law enforcement agencies.

Ranking No. 15 on the list is Houston's Sauer St./McGowen St. census tract, which is bordered by I-45 to the north, Elgin to the south, U.S. 59 to the west and the Columbia Tap Trail to the east. The violent crime rate is 75.89 per 1,000 residents — far greater than the city average of 9.78. Residents have a one in 13 annual chance of becoming a victim (compare that to a chance of one in 102 in Houston overall).

At No. 6 is the Scott St./Wilmington St. tract, a sector of Sunnyside hemmed in by Reed Road to the north and Sims Bayou to the south, Scott Street to the west and Cullen Boulevard to the east, that contains several schools — Worthing High School, Pro-Vision and Carnegie Vanguard High School (which moved to the corner of Taft Street and West Gray in 2012). There, the rate of violent crimes is a staggering 91.27 per 1,000 residents. Chances of becoming a victim are one in 11 per year.

Even if it is just the 1% who are rotten apples, it's up to the 99% to stop them from spoiling the whole barrelful. And for agencies outside the police to hold them to account rather than let it slide.

bbauska wrote:https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140917/05100828545/la-school-district-relunctantly-gives-up-grenade-launchers-pentagon-gave-them.shtml

Can anyone else say over-militarization?

bbauska wrote:Can anyone else say over-militarization?