Join In On The Action "Register Here" To View The Forums

Already a Member Login Here

Board index Forum Index

Egypt's "Spring"

  • Posted on
  • by Purple
User avatar
Doctor Fate
Ambassador
 
Posts: 21062
Joined: 15 Jun 2002, 6:53 am

Post 19 Dec 2012, 10:48 am

rickyp wrote:The problem with using the historical record as a base, is that modern communications seem to have accelerated much of the evolutionary speed of human developments like democracy. .


Strange, but it seems you've taken the other side when it comes to terrorism. As in, "Well, Islam is hundreds of years behind other religions. Christianity had its Crusades and its Inquisitions and it has evolved. Islam needs more time."

So, modern communications will speed the process of how they govern their countries, but not how they respond to minor religious provocations?

Got it.
User avatar
rickyp
Statesman
 
Posts: 11324
Joined: 15 Aug 2000, 8:59 am

Post 19 Dec 2012, 11:29 am

Not really.
Actually I've said that Islam, after hundreds of years of existing in fairly isolated environments, is now facing the modern world and conflicting ideas because of modern comminications. And that is a conflict of ideas that took place over the last 2000 years for Christianity, involving religious wars, inquisitions, witch hunts , persecution and more...
And it is the former isolation from other ideas that protected some fundamental Muslims.
The enemy of fundamental thought is exposure to competing ideas and critical thought. In Muslim countries where there has been a more open communication of ideas, Islam is practiced without extreme views that could tolerate terrorism. (Malaysia, Azerbaijan.) In Pashtun, for example, continuing isolation protects the extremists from competing ideas.
Without Modern Communications the Islamic world would probably take as long as Europe to evolve its relationship to religion. But with Modern communications it will probably evolve faster. But not over night.



.
User avatar
rickyp
Statesman
 
Posts: 11324
Joined: 15 Aug 2000, 8:59 am

Post 20 Dec 2012, 8:31 am

ray
Regarding the examples that you have chosen, they all argue against your thesis. All three Baltic states and the former Czechoslavakia had varrying levels of democracy with supporting institutions between the two world wars. After WWII they were occupied or controlled by the Soviet Union. They are also within a cluster of many democratic countries. I would say those are very different situations than Egypt which has never been a democracy and by and large has not developed the corresponding institutions


I suppose that's true, as long as there was institutional memory of the period of democracy. And, I'd bet that the period of democracy was cherished by those who experienced the period, and passed that memory down....
The idea of the "Cluster of democracies" is important too, except that we could expand that to include the whole world. At one time, the world had only England, and the United States (and ancient Greece) as examples of democracy.... Now, its not the experiment it once was...
User avatar
Ray Jay
Ambassador
 
Posts: 4991
Joined: 08 Jun 2000, 10:26 am

Post 18 Jan 2013, 5:31 am

a few of the clips of Morsi and supporters with translations:

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/3713.htm

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/3431.htm

http://www.memri.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/3614.htm

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/3702.htm

If you have limited time, the last one is the most relevant.
User avatar
Doctor Fate
Ambassador
 
Posts: 21062
Joined: 15 Jun 2002, 6:53 am

Post 18 Jan 2013, 7:43 am

Ray Jay wrote:a few of the clips of Morsi and supporters with translations:

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/3713.htm

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/3431.htm

http://www.memri.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/3614.htm

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/3702.htm

If you have limited time, the last one is the most relevant.


Yes, but those are taken out of context . . .

Er . . . the President has consistently supported Israel's right to exist . . .

Er . . . I'll have to take the question to the President . . . how about those Clippers!

Dark(er) days are coming for Israel--not that I want that, but it's the direction events are going.
User avatar
Ray Jay
Ambassador
 
Posts: 4991
Joined: 08 Jun 2000, 10:26 am

Post 18 Jan 2013, 8:03 am

Perhaps when the cleric says he will banish the sleep from the eyes of all Jews he is politely offering me a cup of coffee?

And praying for the dispersement of all Jews is actually a generous offer for a fully paid vacation.
User avatar
Doctor Fate
Ambassador
 
Posts: 21062
Joined: 15 Jun 2002, 6:53 am

Post 18 Jan 2013, 8:51 am

Ray Jay wrote:Perhaps when the cleric says he will banish the sleep from the eyes of all Jews he is politely offering me a cup of coffee?

And praying for the dispersement of all Jews is actually a generous offer for a fully paid vacation.


You're hired as . . . the new press secretary! :)

There is no way to spin it.

Of course, there's no way to spin "Al Qaida is on the run . . . it's leadership has been decimated" as you look at today's news, but . . . that's the press secretary's job.

I think the Egyptian "revolution," in retrospect, is a disaster.

I wonder if it gives you pause about your "like" for the President's foreign policy. I remember when Libya was "just right."

As I look around North Africa and the Middle East today, I see tumult, Islamism on the rise, American influence vastly decreased, and Israel increasingly isolated.

I don't "blame" Obama entirely. However, I think he is fairly comfortable with what's happening. The Hagel nomination speaks to that.

I think we're likely to see an increase in this sort of story: http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/01/18/v ... ssing.html

President Obama has created a vacuum by leading from behind. The results will not be pretty.
User avatar
Ray Jay
Ambassador
 
Posts: 4991
Joined: 08 Jun 2000, 10:26 am

Post 18 Jan 2013, 9:51 am

Steve:
I wonder if it gives you pause about your "like" for the President's foreign policy. I remember when Libya was "just right."

As I look around North Africa and the Middle East today, I see tumult, Islamism on the rise, American influence vastly decreased, and Israel increasingly isolated.

I don't "blame" Obama entirely. However, I think he is fairly comfortable with what's happening. The Hagel nomination speaks to that.


It certainly gives me pause, but I don't really know if there are better alternatives out there. Either way, they seem to hate us. Either way, innocent people (Islamic and western) die. We do have limited resources and should resist ground wars at all cost. Let's save our resources and use drones when we have to. Let's prevent WMDs. I keep going back to the Serenity Prayer.

It's good to help get rid of terrible dictators (e.g. Egypt, Libya, Syria) even though we know that their replacements will have similar anti-western instincts and willingness to spill blood if it is in their interest.

Choosing between bad outcomes is never easy. Whichever one you pick, your critics will point to the results and make it seem like the alternative would have been much better.

I punt. What do others think?
User avatar
rickyp
Statesman
 
Posts: 11324
Joined: 15 Aug 2000, 8:59 am

Post 18 Jan 2013, 2:37 pm

I only watched the last one Ray. But he begins by saying that negotiating with Israel is worthless. That Israel has said " take what we offer and be happy." And that further negotiating is wasteful because the bottom line is both known and unchanging. Meanwhile time and opportunity slip away from Palestinians.
And then he gets ugly...

But haven't you yourself said much the same? (Not the ugly part). That the Palestinians should compromise and take whats offered, because it isn't getting any better? (One such comment I quote you below)

ray
Their position will not get stronger. If they want a state, they have to compromise. That really is my point in a nutshell. I guess you think they are playing it right? Do you measure the offer against your dream or do you measure the offer against the alternative reality
?

I think you're point is: "how can Israel negotiate with people who hate like this..". And yet you expect that Palestinians should set aside their resentment and hatred, take the best deal offered and get on with their lives.

And Morsi is saying, these people aren't really negotiating. (he isn't alone in this thought, is he? Many less involved observers accuse Nethanyu of stalling, and provoking Palestinians with his tactics. i.e. announcing new settlements..)
As a Muslim, he's part of the Umaya and feels the pain that Palestinians feel. And it feeds an ugly hatred.
By the way, that resentment and hatred includes Western countries who launched the state of Israel, and often supported dictatorships that imprisoned and tortured many of the Muslim Brotherhood, and treated the people of the Islamic world (the middle east) with little regard. Islamists have a somewhat different concept of community and social justice then westerners. Its part of the tradition of the religion and the upheaval in the 19th and 20th centuries saw secular dictators, supported by the west, rise to power in many parts of the Muslim world. The community (Umaya) is more important than the new "nation states" impressed upon Muslims by the various western treaties.. . (Including Saudi Arabia which, as a monarchy, is seen by the MB to be an aberation from islamic values) .
All in all, I'd have to ask you "what do you expect"? From his point of view, his brothers were driven out of their homes, forced to live as refugees for decades, lied to by everyone, and then had their lands occupied in the West Bank... If your bother had been treated that way, you'd probably feel unkindly to the people who you thought were responsible.
That said, one hopes that Morsi, as he ascends to power, learns the value of moderation in speech and thought.



.
User avatar
Ray Jay
Ambassador
 
Posts: 4991
Joined: 08 Jun 2000, 10:26 am

Post 19 Jan 2013, 6:30 am

Since you didn't have time to look at the videos before having an opinion, here's a copy of the transcript of some of the more interesting parts

Morsi:
Dear brothers, we must not forget to nurse our children and grandchildren on hatred towards those Zionists and Jews, and all those who support them. They must be nursed on hatred. The hatred must continue.


From the cleric introducing Morsi to a crowd at the start of his campaign:
Millions of martyrs march toward Jerusalem. ..
Banish the sleep from the eyes of all Jews. ... Forget about the whole world, forget about all the conferences.


And from another cleric while Morsi repeated Amen:
Oh Allah, absolve us of our sins, strengthen us, and grant us victory over the infidels. Oh Allah, deal with the Jews and their supporters. Oh Allah, disperse them, rend them asunder.


Ricky, your post really leaves me breathless. You are willing to tolerate behavior of Arab politicians that you would deplore if uttered by a westerner. That expectation gap is sinister. Furthermore, Morsi got his Phd in the United States. He was an Assistant Professor here and 2 of his children were born in the U.S. He lived in California for 6 or 7 years. He should have learned something about respecting differences and pluralism in that time.

It's one thing to have an extremem position such as the Palestinians deserve all of the land of Israel/Palestine. It's very much another thing to say that "Jews are descendants of pigs". And it's certainly another thing to call for genocide, not just of Israelis, but of all Jews, including the ones who are willing to bend over backwards for the Palestinians or have absolutely nothing to do with the conflict. This is the man's heart.
User avatar
rickyp
Statesman
 
Posts: 11324
Joined: 15 Aug 2000, 8:59 am

Post 19 Jan 2013, 8:09 am

I say anything about approving "hate"?
Or tolerating "Hate"?
Don't.
I Just understand why the guy hates. I accept that his emotions come from genuine grievances.
If I pulled out a lot of quotations from Fundamental jews in Israel, especially the settler extremists, they would parallel Morsis, so its not as if this a uniquely an Arab or Muslim thing...
There's obviously no solution to Palestinian/Israel problems following the route of hate .... but there isn't likely to be a change in that attitude unless there is a significantly different approach from the Israelis that provides something more substantial than what they get about of the current Israel government.
That you continual see the problem as the nature of the Arabs ... is startling to me. It takes two or more groups to create conflict. And it takes years to create the nasty historical mess that is the Palestinian problem.
User avatar
freeman2
Dignitary
 
Posts: 1573
Joined: 19 Dec 2000, 4:40 pm

Post 19 Jan 2013, 9:37 am

There is a time and place for talking about Arab grievances and that time is not when they are making genocidal comments. And when we talk about Arab grievances, most of them originated ultimately from Arab aggression against Israel. You can find plenty of fault with how Israel has handled their power over Arabs, but that would have never happened but for
continued attempts by Arabs to put Israel out of existence.
I was a bit frustrated when I thought RJ appeared to interpret the peace talks between Abbas and Olmert through a preconception that Palestinians were unwilling to make peace with Israel (unless they got everything they wanted) However, I thought that Abbas showed a willingness to make some concessions in contrast to Arafat who was not even able to make any counter-offers back in 2000.
But RJ is absolutely right here--you don't try to explain genocidal comments.
User avatar
Ray Jay
Ambassador
 
Posts: 4991
Joined: 08 Jun 2000, 10:26 am

Post 19 Jan 2013, 12:48 pm

rickyp wrote:I say anything about approving "hate"?
Or tolerating "Hate"?
Don't.
I Just understand why the guy hates. I accept that his emotions come from genuine grievances.
If I pulled out a lot of quotations from Fundamental jews in Israel, especially the settler extremists, they would parallel Morsis, so its not as if this a uniquely an Arab or Muslim thing...
There's obviously no solution to Palestinian/Israel problems following the route of hate .... but there isn't likely to be a change in that attitude unless there is a significantly different approach from the Israelis that provides something more substantial than what they get about of the current Israel government.
That you continual see the problem as the nature of the Arabs ... is startling to me. It takes two or more groups to create conflict. And it takes years to create the nasty historical mess that is the Palestinian problem.


No one said that you approved hate.

Finding a settler or fundamental jew (whatever that means) who says something nasty is not parallel to the President of Egypt slurring a people and calling for genocide and refusting to repudiate it.

Also, my post wasn't meant to be about the Arab-Israeli conflict (or I would have posted it there). It's about the nature of the Egypt Spring and the people who were democratically elected and who they are. I think it has much broader implications than the Arab-Israeli conflict.
User avatar
rickyp
Statesman
 
Posts: 11324
Joined: 15 Aug 2000, 8:59 am

Post 19 Jan 2013, 2:37 pm

ray
Also, my post wasn't meant to be about the Arab-Israeli conflict (or I would have posted it there). It's about the nature of the Egypt Spring and the people who were democratically elected and who they are. I think it has much broader implications than the Arab-Israeli conflict.


Maybe I'm missing something. All you did was post the clips. Two from 2010.

What does Morsi bearing hate towards Israel say about the Arab Spring ?

Look, Morsi is popular in Egypt and in part maybe its because he's saying hateful vile things about Israel. Politicians throughout the Arab world use Israel as a target in order to whip up support for themselves from the aggrieved Muslims.. Its a pretty stereo typical way for politicians to pander to the darkest impulses of some of their people - and in Israel's case its both a foreign distraction and a target within the neighborhood. Hating Israel gets him votes... It reflects his society. Unfortunately
So what. I'd prefer the guy were Ghandi like but he isn't. And he has what Mubarek never had, the stamp of authority given to him by a legitimate election.
In reality it doesn't change anything with Israel. And it doesn't mean anything about the Arab spring. You either support the idea that a people should be able to democratically choose their government, and sometimes end up with clattering evil demagogues like Chavez and Morsi. Or you decide that the West should be able to decide who rules Egypt as the West did for so many years (from the 1870s, after Muhamed Ali broke the nation) ... And end up with Nasser, Awat and Mubarek. And create the atmosphere that gives birth to clattering evil demagogues, and Islamic fundamentalists like the 79 Iran revolution...
In the long run, the principle that democracy is the best way for countries to evolve is proven. It doesn't mean that every democracy is immediately a glittering place of liberal principles and tolerant and benevolent politicians loved by all and with love for all. But it does mean that over time countries tend to become more tolerant and acquire greater freedoms...
Morsi will moderate his language if it benefits him to do so. International pressure and the realities of power will probably be the first pressures to do do... But he'll still find israel a useful target if he needs to whip up the base at some point. Unfortunately.
User avatar
Ray Jay
Ambassador
 
Posts: 4991
Joined: 08 Jun 2000, 10:26 am

Post 21 Jan 2013, 6:14 am

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/01/16 ... erting-to/

She sought the help of others in the registration office to process new identity cards between 2004 and 2006. When the conversion came to light under the new regime, Nadia, her children and even the clerks who processed the identity cards were all sentenced to prison.