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- Ray Jay
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27 Sep 2012, 6:28 am
Now I got it ... I think the video is the real deal. The guys is real, but it's not clear that WINEP is funded by AIPAC. So, it's a smart qualified guy who works for a think tank who has a view. Maybe AIPAC funds him, maybe not. Maybe he's right; maybe not.
The scary part for me is that the comment: "Rothschild agent" got 11 thumbs up. There are nastier anti-semitic comments as well.
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- rickyp
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27 Sep 2012, 6:46 am
danivon
I could. It was bizarre - it looked to me like some kind of hoax, it came across as all hammed up. But I can't tell if it is, or if it's part of some kind of 'ironic' devil's advocacy, or the real deal. I don't know enough about the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, or the speaker, to say.
Whatever else, His observations about the historical record of American administrations often requiring an event to force conflict are accurate. And at least twice (Viet Nam and Spanish American) there is doubt about the events that forced the wars. So if it raises concerns that such an event could be manufactured to force the hand of the US, perhaps thats valid?
It isn't clear that who he thinks might manufacture a triggering event... I think it would be far liklier that such an event would be precipitated by actions taken by an overly aggressive American administration then the Israelis... The danger to the Israelis if the "manufacture" ever became known would be an end to a US alliance.
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- Ray Jay
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28 Sep 2012, 4:12 am
An important consideration.
http://world.time.com/2012/09/27/how-ma ... ear-sites/One key site that would almost certainly be targeted in a bombing campaign, the uranium-conversion facility at Isfahan, houses 371 metric tons of uranium hexafluoride and is located on the city’s doorstep; toxic plumes released from a strike would reach the city center within an hour, killing as many as 70,000 and exposing over 300,000 to radioactive fallout. These plumes would “destroy their lungs, blind them, severely burn their skin and damage other tissues and vital organs.” The report’s predictions for long-term toxicity and fatalities are equally stark. “The numbers are alarming,” says Khosrow Semnani, the report’s author, “we’re talking about a catastrophe in the same class as Bhopal and Chernobyl.”
Beyond those initially killed in a potential strike, the Iranian government’s lack of readiness for handling wide-scale radiation exposure could exponentially raise the death toll, Semnani says. His study, published by the University of Utah’s Hinckley Institute of Politics and the nongovernmental organization Omid for Iran, outlines Iran’s poor record of emergency response and notes that its civilian casualties from natural disasters like earthquakes have been far greater than those suffered during similar disasters in better prepared countries like Turkey. With virtually no clinical capacity or medical infrastructure to deal with wide-scale radioactive fallout, or early warning systems in place to limit exposure, Iran would be swiftly overwhelmed by the aftermath of a strike. The government’s woeful unpreparedness remains unknown to most Iranians.
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- danivon
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28 Sep 2012, 5:14 am
Very important. Even if the Iranian government's lack of ability to deal with such an event is down to them, the blame for such levels of impact would be put on whoever would make the attack that leads to it.
I can see why even those who are pushing for strikes are often suggesting that someone other than themselves do it or at least get involved.
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- rickyp
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28 Sep 2012, 6:07 am
Netanahyu needs better graphics when making his presentation.
I was pretty sure I saw the brand name ACME on the bomb he drew for the UN.....
Frankly, if anything his presentation, as serious as it should have been, made him seem like a crack pot. The UN being a place where leaders often display erratic behaviour. I doubt this will help his domestic politics, where the opposition to his line of reasoning seems to be gaining momentum. Especially with the release yesterday with the study on the effects on Iran of the sanctions.... They seem to be working .
http://www.newsday.com/news/world/repor ... -1.4050022
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- Ray Jay
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28 Sep 2012, 6:31 am
My sense of Netanyahu's speech is that he put off an Israeli strike till the spring. This is a relief to Obama and many others. However, I don't think he's a crackpot by any means. To me it's impressive that a world leader is doing everything he can to avoid a conflagration. We can stiffen sanctions yet again and see what happens.
Israel has admirably let us know their red line. If Israel does attack in March, I cannot fault them. They are trying to avoid a conflict. It is Iran that is putting its people in harms' way. Iran then throws gas on the fire by denying Israel's historical legitimacy. It accepts hardship for its people so that it can develop a nuclear bomb. It funds terrorists throughout the world who target Israelis and Jews from South America to Asia. What assurances does Israel have? There is no reason to believe that the Iranian powers operate rationally or on a terrestrial level. I appreciate that many may die if Israel attacks, but why should any nation risk its own people's survival?
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- danivon
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05 Oct 2012, 1:25 pm
Ray Jay wrote:Israel has admirably let us know their red line. If Israel does attack in March, I cannot fault them.
Despite the knowledge that there's a potention million civilian casualties from radiation? Sure, you can say Iran's intransigence and belligerence led to it, but generally people will look to who actually bombed a facility to blame for when the results are so deadly. I'm not sure that's really something Israel wants to be tarred with, frankly.
Anyway, Iran has enough problems -
Iranian currency crisis threatens Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's rule (Guardian)
It did not help that Tehran's Grand Bazaar, the heartbeat of the capital's economy, also went on strike and hundreds of protesters took to the streets, chanting anti-government slogans that described the president as a traitor". Iranian state TV, which rarely reflects public anger about the regime, reported the closure of the bazaar and the discontent about the devaluation of currency.
Now, I happen to think that it would actually
help the Iranian regime if they could point to external pressures as both an excuse for their economic problems and a distraction from them. If nothing else, perhaps it shows that the sanctions are having an effect.
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- bbauska
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05 Oct 2012, 4:23 pm
Not that you asked me, Danivon; but I would not have a problem with a strike that causes a leak. It was brought by the bellicosity of the Iranian regime, and the people have to suffer under it's leaders. After all, it is scriptural.
Proverbs 29:2
I do hope that the Iranian people do change leadership, though.
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- danivon
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06 Oct 2012, 12:33 am
'Bible says so' is not really going to convince me that it's the right course of action. Your lack of a problem with civilian megadeath is noted.
I also hope the Iranians change their leadership. I, however, realise that it won't be easy for them to do, and don't support collective punishment should they fail.
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- Ray Jay
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06 Oct 2012, 5:28 am
danivon wrote:Ray Jay wrote:Israel has admirably let us know their red line. If Israel does attack in March, I cannot fault them.
Despite the knowledge that there's a potention million civilian casualties from radiation? Sure, you can say Iran's intransigence and belligerence led to it, but generally people will look to who actually bombed a facility to blame for when the results are so deadly. I'm not sure that's really something Israel wants to be tarred with, frankly.
Anyway, Iran has enough problems -
Iranian currency crisis threatens Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's rule (Guardian)
It did not help that Tehran's Grand Bazaar, the heartbeat of the capital's economy, also went on strike and hundreds of protesters took to the streets, chanting anti-government slogans that described the president as a traitor". Iranian state TV, which rarely reflects public anger about the regime, reported the closure of the bazaar and the discontent about the devaluation of currency.
Now, I happen to think that it would actually
help the Iranian regime if they could point to external pressures as both an excuse for their economic problems and a distraction from them. If nothing else, perhaps it shows that the sanctions are having an effect.
I think we are all agreed that the replacement of the Iranian regime is a superior outcome. If that does happen I'm sure the world will thank Israel for galvanizing foreign governments to stiffen sanctions.
Where does your 1 million casualty number come from? I went back to the article which uses the number 70,000. Also, there's now an addendum to the article which indicates that 70,000 is overstated.
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- bbauska
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06 Oct 2012, 8:02 am
I do not use the Bible to change your opinion. I give it as an example of why I have my opinion.
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- danivon
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06 Oct 2012, 2:24 pm
Ray Jay - Sorry. I misread it. It was 70k dead (which I misread as 700k) plus another 300k exposed.
so a third of a million casualties, and seventy thousand dead. Not sure that it makes alot of difference that the numbers are a bot lower, it's still a lot of people killed.
If Iran actually attacked and the result was 70,000 dead Israelis (or Americans, or Europeans or whatever), would you guys be in a forgiving mood?
bbauska - I guess the bit in the bible where some guy called Jesus said 'blessed are the peacemakers' passed you by...
Last edited by
danivon on 06 Oct 2012, 2:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- bbauska
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06 Oct 2012, 2:35 pm
No I think Iran should be a peacemaker, but if they choose not to be, then the other would apply.
Would I feel differently if Israel would lose 70K? If they were as hostile and swore destruction of Iran, no. I would not feel differently.
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- danivon
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06 Oct 2012, 2:51 pm
Sure, Iran should be a peacemaker, but others can be too. If their government is not (and so is not 'blessed') that's enough to risk civilian lives? If Israel is saying 'we will attack unless x', are they not being belligerent themselves?
Quick question, bbauska - if foreign powers felt Obama (or another President) was too bellicose, and they as a result attacked the USA, would you put it down to a verse in Proverbs?
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- Ray Jay
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06 Oct 2012, 6:06 pm
danivon wrote:Sure, Iran should be a peacemaker, but others can be too. If their government is not (and so is not 'blessed') that's enough to risk civilian lives? If Israel is saying 'we will attack unless x', are they not being belligerent themselves?
Quick question, bbauska - if foreign powers felt Obama (or another President) was too bellicose, and they as a result attacked the USA, would you put it down to a verse in Proverbs?
Iran's top leadership has said on many occassions that they want to wipe Israel off the map and that it is a one bomb country. They say that 6 million people who live there have no right to do so. They say it is a cancer.
There is not a comparable out there as far as I can tell. Iran murders and rapes its own citizens. They supply arms and manpower to the brutal governent of Syria. They arm Israel's neighbors with weapons and for terrorism. They are single-mindedly trying to build a nuclear bomb. They don't care if it wrecks their economy. They don't care if the deadly material is near population centers.
The job of Israel and her Prime Minister is to protect the 7.5 million Israelis. Anything less is treason.