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Post 09 Dec 2011, 10:04 am

Doctor Fate wrote:
freeman2 wrote:And it is very important to assess blame here. Wall Street and the banking industry caused trillions of dollars in damage to the American economy. They owe that money to the American people. They should be made to pay it back or, at the very least, agree to be heavily regulated. They are lucky they are not going to jail for what they did.


Being a lawyer, perhaps you can answer two questions concerning sending them to jail:

1. What specific laws were broken and by whom?

2. Since your man, Barack Obama, and his sidekick, Eric Holder, are the chief federal law enforcement officers, why are they not prosecuting these "crooks?"


Great story on this very topic on 60 minutes. It's long, but they have a transcript you can read too:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_162-57336042/prosecuting-wall-street/?tag=contentMain;cbsCarousel

It says that Justice is still making cases.
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Post 09 Dec 2011, 10:42 am

Archduke Russell John wrote:
freeman2 wrote: Payroll tax cuts will increase consumer demand and then hopefully businesses will respond to meet that increased demand.


The current payroll tax cut is basically an extra $1,000 a year. Assuming a bi-weekly pay period, or 26 paychecks a year, this comes out to $38.46 before taxes. Assuming about 25% remaining tax duductions that is $28.85 a pay period.

I am sorry bu there is no way giving that average person $28.85 extra every two weeks is not going to increase demand.


You (Russ) may have an extra 'not' in there (bolded). Alternatively, you and Freeman are not communicating.
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Post 09 Dec 2011, 10:52 am

geojanes wrote:Great story on this very topic on 60 minutes. It's long, but they have a transcript you can read too:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_162-57336042/prosecuting-wall-street/?tag=contentMain;cbsCarousel

It says that Justice is still making cases.


No disrespect to you or 60 Minutes, but I will believe it when the convictions are announced. 3 years, zero indictments, let alone any actual trials. I saw part of the interview with Foster. I would highlight this and ask if this shows any real progress:

Kroft: Would you give their names to a grand jury if you were asked?

Foster: Yes.

But Eileen Foster has never been asked - and never spoken to the Justice Department - even though she was Countrywide's executive vice president in charge of fraud investigations. At the height of the housing bubble, Countrywide Financial was the largest mortgage lender in the country and the loans it made were among the worst, a third ending up in foreclosure or default, many because of mortgage fraud.


Furthermore, weren't some well-connected Democrats given loans by Countrywide, known as "friends of Angelo" loans? For this Countrywide investigation to go forward might entail political risk for Democrats, even the President. I think the odds of anything happening are very, very low. Imagine Mozilo testifying about those who received such loans, including the guy who wrote "Dodd-Frank."
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Post 09 Dec 2011, 12:10 pm

Doctor Fate wrote:
Archduke Russell John wrote:
freeman2 wrote: Payroll tax cuts will increase consumer demand and then hopefully businesses will respond to meet that increased demand.


The current payroll tax cut is basically an extra $1,000 a year. Assuming a bi-weekly pay period, or 26 paychecks a year, this comes out to $38.46 before taxes. Assuming about 25% remaining tax duductions that is $28.85 a pay period.

I am sorry bu there is no way giving that average person $28.85 extra every two weeks is not going to increase demand.


You (Russ) may have an extra 'not' in there (bolded). Alternatively, you and Freeman are not communicating.


You are absolutely correct that I have an extra not in there. It should be

There is no way giving the average person $28.85 extra every two weeks is going to increase demand.
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Post 09 Dec 2011, 12:19 pm

Archduke Russell John wrote:There is no way giving the average person $28.85 extra every two weeks is going to increase demand.
Really? If only 100M Americans benefit by that amount on average, that is $2,885,000,000 dollars every two weeks of extra demand. Nearly $6Bn each month. An annual effect of $75Bn

Which is about 0.5% of GDP. This may not be huge, but even in a national context, a difference of 0.5% of GDP going into the real economy would be an increase in demand.

Your slip was perhaps Freudian.
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Post 09 Dec 2011, 1:18 pm

steve
Businesses will certainly meet any increased demand. That's what they do


nonsense.
businesses will react to increased demand in a number of ways but principally::
- increasing production
-increasing the price of what they produce

sometimes increased demand meets inelastic supply. in those cases the only thing that can happen, absent regulations governing against, is higher prices.

right now there is a great deal of unused capacity in the US economy. increased demand will not require any increase in productiivity, only the application of underused resources. (including unemployed people). The only spur for improved productivity now is to decrease the cost of production and increase the margins...
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Post 09 Dec 2011, 2:09 pm

rickyp wrote:steve
Businesses will certainly meet any increased demand. That's what they do


nonsense.
businesses will react to increased demand in a number of ways but principally::
- increasing production
-increasing the price of what they produce


Um, hmm, I said businesses will meet increased demand. You described how they will do that. The word "nonsense" is . . . well, nonsensical.

sometimes increased demand meets inelastic supply. in those cases the only thing that can happen, absent regulations governing against, is higher prices.


Okay, brilliant point. So, as an example . . . gold?

What are you blathering about? In almost any market for manufactured goods, which is the focus of this discussion, inelasticity is not a concern. Now, could there be exceptions? Sure, but we're talking general rules, so take an Advil.

right now there is a great deal of unused capacity in the US economy. increased demand will not require any increase in productiivity, only the application of underused resources. (including unemployed people). The only spur for improved productivity now is to decrease the cost of production and increase the margins...


This has nothing to do with whether demand precedes supply, but thanks for it.
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Post 09 Dec 2011, 2:36 pm

This has nothing to do with whether demand precedes supply, but thanks for it.


No? Concentrate now: The unused capacity is potential supply... it isn't being used.
because there is no demand.
having the supply capacity isn't having an effect on the economy is it? So demand is entirely the place where economic activity starts.

And there are not a few, but a great many examples of inelastic markets. For example: When the price of oil climbs, because there is a limit to the production capacity, thats one. Often the price of food is affected when demand outstrips supply.
But increasing food production doesn't necessarily mean that there is an increased demand for the produce ...or that prices go down. Supppliers can decide to sell at a floor price and use the produce in another way, rather than establish too low a value for their products.
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Post 09 Dec 2011, 2:52 pm

rickyp wrote:
This has nothing to do with whether demand precedes supply, but thanks for it.


No? Concentrate now: The unused capacity is potential supply... it isn't being used.
because there is no demand.
having the supply capacity isn't having an effect on the economy is it? So demand is entirely the place where economic activity starts.


You have missed the thrust of the whole debate which is whether Job Creators and Innovators create demand or whether demand creates Innovation, etc.

And there are not a few, but a great many examples of inelastic markets. For example: When the price of oil climbs, because there is a limit to the production capacity, thats one. Often the price of food is affected when demand outstrips supply.
But increasing food production doesn't necessarily mean that there is an increased demand for the produce ...or that prices go down. Supppliers can decide to sell at a floor price and use the produce in another way, rather than establish too low a value for their products.


You are talking commodities. No one argued about commodities or even discussed it. I brought up gold as an example because it is difficult to think of a "product" that cannot have its production increased. Even if one wants to argue about gasoline, there are ways around the production limits.
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Post 09 Dec 2011, 3:24 pm

I brought up gold as an example because it is difficult to think of a "product" that cannot have its production increased. In almost any market for manufactured goods, which is the focus of this discussion, inelasticity is not a concern

for you.
the question of how quickly can a product have its production increased is part of the equation.i.e. it takes many years to develop an oil field, it can take many years to build production facilities for any product. An automobile facility is 5 to 6 years. During periods where the demand out strips production you have an inelastic market. Demand out stripping supply.

I havn't missed the thrust that you are talking "supply side economics" the idea that if we increase production and efficiency we create markets.
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Post 09 Dec 2011, 3:43 pm

Some good points/questions from Steve which I will try to address.

First, one reason that banks started to become less risk averse was the ending of the Glas-Steagall Act in the late 1990s. The end of Glas-Steagall broke down the barriers between investment banks which issued securities (like Goldman Sachs, Shearson Lehman, Bear Stearns, etc.) and commercial banks. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass%E2%80%93Steagall_Act

At the same time Glass-Steagall was done away with and commercial banks are wanting to become more like investment banks and make larger profits, you have this new (or relatvely) type of mortgage security which investment banks could market to large commercial banks because part of the security was rated AAA. So banks, instead of getting low returns on treasure notes, could get higher returns by putting their money into these AAA rated securities (which were supposed to be virtually risk-free but of course they were not properly rated) These commercial banks had billions and billions of dollars to invest. They thought that these securities were risk free, but the rating agencies are paid by the investment banks which is an inherent conflict in the system .

Thus, Goldman Sach had a ready buyer for these mortgage securities but they needed to get loans for them. And as time went on, and housing prices went up, standards went down (not because of the government) but because in order to keep the supply of loans coming you had to lower standards. There was a supply chain going from the initial lender to investment bank to commercial bank and none of those entities thought they were taking any real risk. So you had this breakdown where the loan originator stopped caring about assessing the credit worthiness of the buyer because they could immediately sell it for a commission, investment bank did not worry about the quality of the borrower because they were able to sell these loans in mortgage securities and commercial mistakenly thought they were high returns on completely safe investments. The problem, of course was that the investments were not safe

Alan Greenspan was the one who kept interest rates low (for a long time at least). There is a statement from Greenspan in April, 2005 where he praises the development of the sub-prime mortgage industry(which of course included the use of adjustable rate mortgages).


'Fed Chairman Alan Greenspan praised the rise of the subprime mortgage industry and the tools with which it uses to assess credit-worthiness in an April 2005 speech: Innovation has brought about a multitude of new products, such as subprime loans and niche credit programs for immigrants. Such developments are representative of the market responses that have driven the financial services industry throughout the history of our country ... With these advances in technology, lenders have taken advantage of credit-scoring models and other techniques for efficiently extending credit to a broader spectrum of consumers. ... Where once more-marginal applicants would simply have been denied credit, lenders are now able to quite efficiently judge the risk posed by individual applicants and to price that risk appropriately. These improvements have led to rapid growth in subprime mortgage lending; indeed, today subprime mortgages account for roughly 10 percent of the number of all mortgages outstanding, up from just 1 or 2 percent in the early 1990s"

Unbelievably, he started to raise rates shortly thereafter and kept raising them. He encouraged the use of ARMs and then started raising rates--I don't know what he was thinking.

As far as Clinton goes, he was the New Democrat, friendly with business and Wall Street. It is typical of both parties to appoint financial people from Wall Street. Liberals were very unhappy with Obama's financial appointments.

As far as crimes being broken, I think the investment banks were acting fraudulently. They were selling securities that were composed of risky loans so that they almost certainly knew that the securities should not have been rated AAA. There are internal emails that clearly indicate that at least some of the high level executives at the investment banks were aware of the risk, but even apart from that one way we know that they were aware of the risk was their investment in credit default swaps. At the same time, Goldman Sachs was selling securities they were betting against them via credit default swaps.

It is not surprising that Wall Street has gotten off so lightly with regard to possible criminal penalties. The rich and powerful get away with things that those less fortunate don't get away with. Wall Street donates a lot of money to politics, they have people in every administration, and white collar crme in general is not prosecuted very often.

I think there is also an argument that the arrangement between investment banks and rating agencies whereby crediting agencies rated these risky securities as AAA in return for fees from the investment banks was a fraud perpetuated on the investors in the securities. Yes, the rating agencies were supposed to be independent but this arrangement just reeks of corruption.

Monte, with regard to laissez faire poliices, the point I was trying to make is that big business has been determining our overall economic policy and they are doing so in their self-interest, not in the interest of America. And I think We the People need to provide more direction in economic policy.

Archduke, I cannot think why banks would suffer trillions in losses because of a concern that they might be fined. a few hundred thousand You are not going to force banks to make bad loans. The reason bad loans were made was that the originators of the loans were able to sell those loans to investment banks who had ready investors for the securities. And most of the loans in the sub-prime ares were not even subject to the CRA (6%). You can believe what you want to of course, but there is little evidence to think that the CRA was responsible for the financial crisis.
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Post 09 Dec 2011, 3:58 pm

rickyp wrote:I brought up gold as an example because it is difficult to think of a "product" that cannot have its production increased. In almost any market for manufactured goods, which is the focus of this discussion, inelasticity is not a concern

for you.
the question of how quickly can a product have its production increased is part of the equation.i.e. it takes many years to develop an oil field, it can take many years to build production facilities for any product. An automobile facility is 5 to 6 years. During periods where the demand out strips production you have an inelastic market. Demand out stripping supply.


All true, but . . . really beside the point, and I would argue about the 5 to 6 year mark if demand was sufficient to build another plant, but who cares? Let me know when you start a car company.

I havn't missed the thrust that you are talking "supply side economics" the idea that if we increase production and efficiency we create markets.


Nope.
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Post 10 Dec 2011, 11:07 am

steve
All true, but . . . really beside the point, and I would argue about the 5 to 6 year mark if demand was sufficient to build another plant, but who cares?


anyone who cares about real world facts when making an arguement.
vw decided to open up production in the US in 2006. they first moved a new corporate headquarters whilst they negotiated with various state and local governments and finally announced a deal in july 2008 to build in Tenneessee.
The first car rolled off the assembly line March 24, 2011.
And thats with typical german efficiency.

The more complex or large scale the production or manufacturing process, the longer it takes to establish production. While increased demand can sometimes see new production open up, sometimes the increased price that the increased demand produces in reaction...sees other things happen. Sometimes the market just shrinks. People can't afford the service or product so they stop buying it... and manufacturers don't get into the market because the increased production would lead to decreased margins and at that point their investment becomes less interesting. (Oil refineries are in this situation.)
Point is Steve, its a helluva lot more complex than the simplistic nonsense that seems to come from people who have never been invovled in manufacturing even in a tangential fashion.


Freeman
You can believe what you want to of course, but there is little evidence to think that the CRA was responsible for the financial crisis.


Holding tightly to the tiniest scrap is very important when concepts that are central to one's belief system are assailed. There had to be a way for those who beleive firmly in limited regulation and governance (small enough to drown in the bath tub as per Grover N) to find government at fault... And so with the exagerated claims as to the influence of the CRA. I say exageratted becasue they did have a small part to play, and that can't be denied. However as the recent disaster echoed much of the history of the 29 crash, and echoed some of the S&L ciris as well, it simply points to the ability of many to refuse to learn from their past mistakes...
If one does come to the realization that the financial crisis was largely one inflicted upon the world by an unfettered and deregulated financial sector, then one has to re-examine the belief in the context of every other element.
However, there is a danger from a reflexive reaction that then says all regulation and governance is good. And that there can't be constant refinement to regulation and governance to improve and enhance the way things work.
Unfortunately for the US I think that corporations have a little too much influence in this process,(see political donations and lobbyists) and although they may often have sound reasons for change / there is a natural suspicion about their motivations.
Further, in the US there is always a two sided debate about every issue... And again, the nature of the political system seems to have contributed to this general adversarial approach to managing things.
A conservative republican cannot admit the nature of the financial crisis becasue that means the other side wins... And somehow thats more important that creating a situation where the end result is improved...
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Post 10 Dec 2011, 11:59 am

rickyp wrote:steve
All true, but . . . really beside the point, and I would argue about the 5 to 6 year mark if demand was sufficient to build another plant, but who cares?


anyone who cares about real world facts when making an arguement.


That would let you right out. You can't even fathom what the discussion is about, so you make comments that are tangential at best.

vw decided to open up production in the US in 2006. they first moved a new corporate headquarters whilst they negotiated with various state and local governments and finally announced a deal in july 2008 to build in Tenneessee.
The first car rolled off the assembly line March 24, 2011.
And thats with typical german efficiency.


Again, the debate is about:

You have missed the thrust of the whole debate which is whether Job Creators and Innovators create demand or whether demand creates Innovation, etc.


You want to sidetrack it into a chat about whether it is possible to have demand outstrip supply--no thanks. That is not the thrust of the discussion.

Freeman
You can believe what you want to of course, but there is little evidence to think that the CRA was responsible for the financial crisis.


Holding tightly to the tiniest scrap is very important when concepts that are central to one's belief system are assailed.


A truth you readily prove over and over in your posts. Here's another rickyp truism: if you declare something true or false enough, the facts don't matter. For example, Ricky, you proclaim over and over that the CRA had little to do with the collapse. For proof, if memory serves, you have adduced precious little.
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Post 10 Dec 2011, 12:20 pm

freeman2 wrote:Some good points/questions from Steve which I will try to address.

First, one reason that banks started to become less risk averse was the ending of the Glas-Steagall Act in the late 1990s. The end of Glas-Steagall broke down the barriers between investment banks which issued securities (like Goldman Sachs, Shearson Lehman, Bear Stearns, etc.) and commercial banks. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass%E2%80%93Steagall_Act

At the same time Glass-Steagall was done away with and commercial banks are wanting to become more like investment banks and make larger profits, you have this new (or relatvely) type of mortgage security which investment banks could market to large commercial banks because part of the security was rated AAA. So banks, instead of getting low returns on treasure notes, could get higher returns by putting their money into these AAA rated securities (which were supposed to be virtually risk-free but of course they were not properly rated) These commercial banks had billions and billions of dollars to invest. They thought that these securities were risk free, but the rating agencies are paid by the investment banks which is an inherent conflict in the system .


I'm not an expert, but I did read the article. The partial repeal passed on an overwhelming bipartisan basis and was signed by Clinton.

Thus, Goldman Sach had a ready buyer for these mortgage securities but they needed to get loans for them. And as time went on, and housing prices went up, standards went down (not because of the government) but because in order to keep the supply of loans coming you had to lower standards. There was a supply chain going from the initial lender to investment bank to commercial bank and none of those entities thought they were taking any real risk. So you had this breakdown where the loan originator stopped caring about assessing the credit worthiness of the buyer because they could immediately sell it for a commission, investment bank did not worry about the quality of the borrower because they were able to sell these loans in mortgage securities and commercial mistakenly thought they were high returns on completely safe investments. The problem, of course was that the investments were not safe


I get that. I watched the video I posted. It explained it all reasonably well.

I guess there is still the question of why banks would pursue short-term profit at the risk of failure. Somehow, that doesn't seem very bank-like. In other words, banks were not built on "let it ride" philosophies. To suggest that a minor revision of a law set open the gates of hell seems a stretch. Like they thought the bills would never come due? They would never roll snake-eyes?

'Fed Chairman Alan Greenspan praised the rise of the subprime mortgage industry and the tools with which it uses to assess credit-worthiness in an April 2005 speech: Innovation has brought about a multitude of new products, such as subprime loans and niche credit programs for immigrants. Such developments are representative of the market responses that have driven the financial services industry throughout the history of our country ... With these advances in technology, lenders have taken advantage of credit-scoring models and other techniques for efficiently extending credit to a broader spectrum of consumers. ... Where once more-marginal applicants would simply have been denied credit, lenders are now able to quite efficiently judge the risk posed by individual applicants and to price that risk appropriately. These improvements have led to rapid growth in subprime mortgage lending; indeed, today subprime mortgages account for roughly 10 percent of the number of all mortgages outstanding, up from just 1 or 2 percent in the early 1990s"


This paragraph shows the issue. Alarm bells should have been going off. In fact, they were--in the Bush White House:

In 2003, while the ranking minority member on the Financial Services Committee, Frank opposed a Bush administration proposal, in response to accounting scandals, for transferring oversight of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac from Congress and the Department of Housing and Urban Development to a new agency that would be created within the Treasury Department. The proposal, supported by the head of Fannie Mae, reflected the administration's belief that Congress "neither has the tools, nor the stature" for adequate oversight. Frank stated, "These two entities ...are not facing any kind of financial crisis ... The more people exaggerate these problems, the more pressure there is on these companies, the less we will see in terms of affordable housing."[44] In 2003, Frank also stated what has been called his "famous dice roll":[45] "I do not want the same kind of focus on safety and soundness [in the regulation of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac] that we have in the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency and the Office of Thrift Supervision. I want to roll the dice a little bit more in this situation towards subsidised housing."[46] In July 2008, Frank said in an CNBC interview, "I think this is a case where Fannie and Freddie are fundamentally sound, that they are not in danger of going under. They’re not the best investments these days from the long-term standpoint going back. I think they are in good shape going forward."


As far as crimes being broken, I think the investment banks were acting fraudulently. They were selling securities that were composed of risky loans so that they almost certainly knew that the securities should not have been rated AAA. There are internal emails that clearly indicate that at least some of the high level executives at the investment banks were aware of the risk, but even apart from that one way we know that they were aware of the risk was their investment in credit default swaps. At the same time, Goldman Sachs was selling securities they were betting against them via credit default swaps.

It is not surprising that Wall Street has gotten off so lightly with regard to possible criminal penalties. The rich and powerful get away with things that those less fortunate don't get away with. Wall Street donates a lot of money to politics, they have people in every administration, and white collar crme in general is not prosecuted very often.


But, President Obama is fighting for the 99%! He's gonna stop the Man from holding you down! :laugh:

You raise some good points, but I think there are some holes. It took a lot more than a partial repeal of Glass-Steagal, some greedy bankers and low rates from the Fed to cause this. Without the government directly interfering and trying to put unqualified owners into homes, the bubble could not have been as big as it was, even if everything else was the same. The government artificially inflated the prices by putting Freddie and Fannie in the business of backing high-risk loans. When the implicit guarantee of a taxpayer bailout of Fannie and Freddie was evident, risk was removed from the marketplace and lenders got really stupid. Their profits were private and the risk was public.

Let's put it this way: if you had $10,000 to your name and were in Vegas and someone promised to cover your losses, you'd gamble a whole lot differently than if you had no safety net.