Doctor Fate wrote:It's only a failed policy if one presumes the only goal was to bring them down. We could have invaded anytime during the last 20+ years and done that.

So what was the goal?

Yes, you could have invaded. And it would have been messy, for the people of Cuba at the very least, if not for the invaders.

On the other hand, why enrich the banana republic dictators who refuse to grant any basic human rights to their people?

Because you never worried about that before? And because Cubans do have some basic human rights (not enough of them, but many that people 'free' Caribbean nations don't have)

Some people think it will change by virtue of increased contact with the West. I tend to think that we should have asked for a few things--like the freedom to travel for the people of Cuba. They should be able to leave their country if they desire. Read the harrowing tale of how the Dodgers' outfielder Yasiel Puig.

Much of the horror seems to have come at the hands of Mexican cartels and Miami gangsters. And of course he was a burglar in Miami so had run-ins with the police there. From what I can see his reason to leave was simply to earn loads of money in the MLB. Laudable, but not a matter of high principle. Still, he is now integrating into life as a US sports star, with those two arrests for reckless driving. I'm sure they are Fidel Castro's fault as well.

Sure, an easing of freedom of movement (both ways, as many in Florida would like to freely go back and visit family) would be a great move forward, but it would take the two countries to move together rather than just one unilaterally. How can you do that before you have more open relations?

fate

It's only a failed policy if one presumes the only goal was to bring them down. We could have invaded anytime during the last 20+ years and done that.

Yes, because invasion and occupation have proved to be such successful strategies of the US over the last 20 years...

Fate

On the other hand, why enrich the banana republic dictators who refuse to grant any basic human rights to their people?

You don't see any irony in the use of the term Banana Republic. A term used to describe the exploitation of the Latin American and Caribbean region by American companies for 100 years ... Particularly Honduras and Guatemala..
Its the existence and promotion of the military, economic and political domination by the US in Banana republics that made the area ripe for Fidel and revolutionaries in the 50s and 60s...

Fate

Some people think it will change by virtue of increased contact with the West. I tend to think that we should have asked for a few things--like the freedom to travel for the people of Cuba. They should be able to leave their country if they desire. Read the harrowing tale of how the Dodgers' outfielder Yasiel Puig

.
Cuba has allowed foreign travel since 2012.
http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/10/16 ... -51-years/

BTW, I don't "love Cuba". Although I've actually been there. The scuba diving around Isle of Pines was marvelous. Havana had some charm.
But I didn't go back.
On the other hand one can recognize the positive aspects of life for Cubans while still recognizing that the political system is rife with injustice that comes from any system controlled by elites. Though not the economic disparity, then one sees in true Banana republics...
(BTW Cuba, like a prototypical banana republic, doesn't rely on one export. Besides sugar, they have nickel, bauxite, cigars and rum. They fear, as do many of the small Caribbean and Latin American nations, free trade from the US that might swamp its agricultural sector.

rickyp wrote:fate

It's only a failed policy if one presumes the only goal was to bring them down. We could have invaded anytime during the last 20+ years and done that.

Yes, because invasion and occupation have proved to be such successful strategies of the US over the last 20 years...

None of which are comparable to Cuba, but why should truth get in your way?

Fate

On the other hand, why enrich the banana republic dictators who refuse to grant any basic human rights to their people?

You don't see any irony in the use of the term Banana Republic. A term used to describe the exploitation of the Latin American and Caribbean region by American companies for 100 years ... Particularly Honduras and Guatemala..
Its the existence and promotion of the military, economic and political domination by the US in Banana republics that made the area ripe for Fidel and revolutionaries in the 50s and 60s...

No irony at all, except the "revolutionaries" were just better at exploiting the proletariat than the previous dictators. They have enriched themselves at the expense of the people--a banana republic in action.

Fate

Some people think it will change by virtue of increased contact with the West. I tend to think that we should have asked for a few things--like the freedom to travel for the people of Cuba. They should be able to leave their country if they desire. Read the harrowing tale of how the Dodgers' outfielder Yasiel Puig

.
Cuba has allowed foreign travel since 2012.
http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/10/16 ... -51-years/

Not true.

BTW, I don't "love Cuba". Although I've actually been there. The scuba diving around Isle of Pines was marvelous. Havana had some charm.

I'm sure the political prisoner there appreciated your visit.

But I didn't go back.
On the other hand one can recognize the positive aspects of life for Cubans while still recognizing that the political system is rife with injustice that comes from any system controlled by elites. Though not the economic disparity, then one sees in true Banana republics...

Whose statistics are you using to pull that out of your shorts?

(BTW Cuba, like a prototypical banana republic, doesn't rely on one export. Besides sugar, they have nickel, bauxite, cigars and rum. They fear, as do many of the small Caribbean and Latin American nations, free trade from the US that might swamp its agricultural sector.

What they really fear is the freedom for Cubans to leave and live in the US. Even worse, that they might lose their grip on the Cuban people.

Fate

What they really fear is the freedom for Cubans to leave and live in the US

How many millions do you want?


Fate

Whose statistics are you using to pull that out of your shorts?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index

rickyp wrote:Fate

What they really fear is the freedom for Cubans to leave and live in the US

How many millions do you want?


Fate

Whose statistics are you using to pull that out of your shorts?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index

1. Anyone who wants to leave. That's "freedom."
2. Not going for a link. Any data would be given by . . . The Cuban government?

fate

1. Anyone who wants to leave. That's "freedom."

really? Because all those people who freely leave Nicaragua, Honduras El Salvador, and Guatamula - genuine "Banana Republics at one time, keep coming to the US and get deported...
Mexicans too.
So i don;t think its trues that the US would be open to a million Cuban refugees.

fate

Not going for a link. Any data would be given by . . . The Cuban government?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_La ... ment_Index

Here's the HDI of the actual region.
It measures life expectancy, literacy, education and standards of living. And of course you won't believe the data. But do you have anything other than your Huffing ad puffing to back up anything?

You could ask people who have visited the various countries and ask their opinion of the quality of life in the various countries. You know the murder rate in Honduras? (highest in the world)
The poverty rate in Guatemala?(54%)
And the history of any of those countries? Whilst Cuba hasn't been a particularly free country citizens in these 4 nations died in civil wars trying to over come dictatorships installed with American support.
El Salvador for example:

The full-fledged civil war lasted for over twelve years, and saw extreme violence from both sides. It also included the deliberate terrorizing and targeting of civilians by death squads, the recruitment of child soldiers, and other violations of human rights, mostly by the military.[23] An unknown number of people "disappeared" during the conflict and the UN reports that more than 75,000 were killed.[24] The United States contributed to the conflict by providing large amounts of military aid to the government of El Salvador during the Carter[25] and Reagan administrations

.

None of this excuses Cuba's short comings. But the context of its short comings versus the failures that are true Banana Republics ... should be placed in context. Despite the US embargo, the Cuban revolution did result in a significant development of its people that the Banana republics have never enjoyed.
To the extent that they now export hundreds of thousands of economic refugees to your country...
And you without your fence..

People cannot leave Cuba. That's fine with you.

The Castros and the elite live in luxury while most live in squalor, without any basic freedom. That's okay with you. I guess that's how you justify visiting and enriching the Castros.

fate

People cannot leave Cuba. That's fine with you.

Most can. In fact many dissidents are asked to leave...
A handful of baseball players can't. (Not dissimilar to Japan where the league has to be paid off before the player is allowed to leave for the US.)

fate

The Castros and the elite live in luxury while most live in squalor, without any basic freedom

Cubans do not live in squalor. I've seen how they live first hand, and the world press have shown much of what life is like in Cuba. Its a helluva lot nicer than the 4 "banana republics". (Have you travelled anywhere?)
The children all read and write, and no one is hungry. Health care is free and of a high quality.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... eracy_rate

Incarceration? Cuba is horrible. As a nation they are ranked 7th in the world in rate of incarceration. (The USA is second).
From Human Rights Watch

In 2010 and 2011, Cuba’s government released dozens of political prisoners on condition they accept exile in exchange for freedom. Since then, it has relied less on long-term prison sentences to punish dissent and has relaxed draconian travel restrictions that divided families and prevented its critics from leaving and returning to the island.

http://www.hrw.org/world-report/2014/co ... pters/cuba

The nature of Cuba's surveillance systems and use of law enforcement to stop dissent is cruel and unjust. But not a lot different than say China. And yet the US has an enormous trade relationship with China.In fact without China holding so much US debt ...?
The point is that the embargo by the US has not changed any of that for 50 years. All its done is given the Commies an excuse for not doing better for their people economically.

I think its pretty funny that you were willing to accept from Cuba
Fate

1. Anyone who wants to leave. That's "freedom.

If millions showed up, as they have from the (you would call Free nations) of Latin America, I'll bet things would be just the same for Cubans..

In 2012, immigration cases constituted 41 percent of all federal criminal cases; illegal reentry is now the most prosecuted federal crime. Many of those prosecuted have minor or no criminal history and have substantial ties to the US such as US citizen family members they were seeking to rejoin when arrested.

And they'd wind up incarcerated in the US.

http://www.hrw.org/world-report/2014/co ... tes?page=2

The children all read and write, and no one is hungry. Health care is free and of a high quality.

Wow that's interesting. But have you ever gone to Cuba and broken your leg or contracted a disease of some sort? I'm not trying to contradict what you say but some of these countries are very good at presenting a good face to foreign tourists, and making sure their people---under pain of death, no pun intended---don't show any suffering whatsoever for the cameras. (The Ba'athist government that ruled Iraq until 2003 were absolute pros at that game.) Personally I cannot say because I have not been to Cuba....yet. I look forward to going one day. But I would not doubt for a minute that, once the US tourists start returning to Havana after all these years, we get a pretty good show put on for us, too. Can't let the Americans see us suffering, it'll hurt the tourist economy.

The point is that the embargo by the US has not changed any of that for 50 years. All its done is given the Commies an excuse for not doing better for their people economically.

Ah, yes, when in doubt, blame America. Now that the USSR is gone, I'm sure they can blame America twice as much for their problems on Radio Havana (as do other totalitarian or authoritarian dictatorships around the world). I would ask how exactly our embargo caused them to treat their people worse, but I know what answer I'm going to get (and approximately how many pages the answer will span.)

hacker

Wow that's interesting. But have you ever gone to Cuba and broken your leg or contracted a disease of some sort? I'm not trying to contradict what you say but some of these countries are very good at presenting a good face to foreign tourists, and making sure their people---under pain of death, no pun intended---don't show any suffering whatsoever for the cameras.

My personal experience is limited to having a Cuban doctor visit a member of my diving group at our hotel on isle of Pines when she became ill. So I wouldn't depend on it.
I rely on all kinds of different evidence. Including for instance
The International Journal of Epidemiology ...

Cuba represents an important alternative example where modest infrastructure investments combined with a well-developed public health strategy have generated health status measures comparable with those of industrialized countries. Areas of success include control of infectious diseases, reduction in infant mortality, establishment of a research and biotechnology industry, and progress in control of chronic diseases, among others. If the Cuban experience were generalized to other poor and middle-income countries human health would be transformed. Given current political alignments, however, the major public health advances in Cuba, and the underlying strategy that has guided its health gains, have been systematically ignored. Scientists make claims to objectivity and empiricism that are often used to support an argument that they make unique contributions to social welfare. To justify those claims in the arena of international health, an open discussion should take place on the potential lessons to be learned from the Cuban experience.

The unwillingness to take account of the Cuban experience, or to even view it as an alternative route through which some societies can move toward the universal goal of health promotion, represents an important oversight. The achievements in Cuba thereby pose a challenge to the authority of the biomedical community in countries that define the scientific agenda. This assertion by no means rests exclusively on Cuba's success in climbing the vital statistics charts. In virtually every critical area of public health and medicine facing poor countries Cuba has achieved undeniable success; these include most prominently—creating a high quality primary care network and an unequaled public health system, educating a skilled work force, sustaining a local biomedical research infrastructure, controlling infectious diseases, achieving a decline in non-communicable diseases, and meeting the emergency health needs of less developed countries

http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/content/35/4/817.long

Yes, because statistics from totalitarian regimes are so reliable..

I have been to Cuba. Many times in fact. I can say that the data given by the doctor and the government of Cuba, does not match with my eyes. I have picked up MANY Cubans who cannot even read Spanish or English.

freeman3

Yes, because statistics from totalitarian regimes are so reliable

I don't know whether or not you read the article in the International Journal of Epidemiology at all. If you did i'd be interested if you have any evidence that contradicts the claims or sources in the article?
Do you have any reliable evidence that any of the statistics are false?

The authors of the piece are from

Department of Preventive Medicine and Epidemiology, Loyola University Stritch School of Medicine, Maywood, IL, USA.
Department of Community Health Sciences, University of Illinois School of Public Health, Chicago, IL, USA.
Hospital Universitario ‘Dr Gustavo Aldereguia Lima’, Cienfuegos, Cub
What evidence do you have that they are unreliable?

The statement stands. The authors rely on Cuban statistics. They make the unsubstantiated claim that the data could not be manipulated. A cursory google search yields many stories of Cuban hospitals lacking even basic supplies , sterilized equipment, drugs, etc. There is a monumental gap between statistics and actual stories of care given. Trying to find any kind of balanced assessment is hard , but I think the following article appears somewhat balanced.

http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/article/cuba’s-health-care-diplomacy-business-humanitarianism
(For some reason having trouble with the link but if you scroll down the page it is archived from 2-27-13)

freeman3

A cursory google search yields many stories of Cuban hospitals lacking even basic supplies , sterilized equipment, drugs, etc. There is a monumental gap between statistics and actual stories of care given. Trying to find any kind of balanced assessment is hard , but I think the following article appears somewhat balanced.

I've read the article you linked. I searched the article you linked.
It doesn't say anything about health care or education. It talks primarily about a lack of many consumer goods...and about the advantages that the higher ups in the military and party have over the average Cuban. (Not unusual for many countries. Even in the US congress there are different rules for insider trading for congressmen than the average citizen.)
Theres' never been any question that the communist system has failed to produce a healthy economy in Cuba. Other than pharmaceuticals and doctors there really aren't many export products. (They export doctors to other Latin American countries both as aid and under contract.) Even the tourist industry is really managed by foreign businesses operating in partnership with Cuba because they don't have expertise. But health care and education are success stories. I can't find the negatives you say you've googled...
Maybe you could link another source, or cut and paste something that actually supports what you are claiming?

I think the claim you are making can't be supported. Cuba is not the closed off society that you think it is. And it would take a closed off society to perpetuate the kind of fraud you propose.
Its open to the extent that many foreigners tour and learn. Here's a blog from a second year medical student from Canada.
http://globalhealth.med.ubc.ca/reflecti ... re-system/

I think one of the reasons that some in the west may want to discredit the Cuban successes in medicine and health care is that they have achieved this success without the enormous cost and waste of Western (particularly the US) systems.
Here;s an interesting first hand account:
Why Is Cuba's Health Care System the Best Model for Poor Countries?
http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/2012/fitz071212.html