rickyp wrote:DF you might try actually reading my references...
I was refering to Ho's original approach to president Wilson.

He joined in a group of Vietnamese nationalists in Paris whose leaders were Phan Chu Trinh and Phan Văn Trường, bearing a new name Nguyễn Ái Quốc (“Nguyễn the Patriot”). Following World War I, the group petitioned for recognition of the civil rights of the Vietnamese people in French Indochina to the Western powers at the Versailles peace talks, but was ignored.[11] Citing the language and the spirit of the U.S. Declaration of Independence, they expected U.S. President Woodrow Wilson to help remove the French colonial rule from Vietnam and ensure the formation of a new, nationalist government. Although they were unable to obtain consideration at Versailles, the failure further radicalized Nguyễn, while also making him a symbol of the anti-colonial movement at home in Vietnam.[12

Your rebutal covered a period much later ....
reading skills...

Not at all. Again, here's what I was rebutting:

The US had plenty of opportunities to take the side of Ho and later the Viet Minh before they became a fundamentally Communist organization but chose to ignore Ho's direct pleas.

So, my citation:

Việt Minh (About this sound listen; abbreviated from Việt Nam Ðộc Lập Ðồng Minh Hội, English "League for the Independence of Vietnam") was a communist national independence coalition formed at Pac Bo on May 19, 1941.

It was FORMED in 1941!!!!!

President Wilson was not President, was he????

Stop digging. You've lost. Deal with it.

rickyp wrote:fate

Any evidence that Jefferson ordered the rape of Loyalists? Torturing them?

He was a slave holder. So whether he deserves the reverance you seem to afford him - I doubt. .

Ah, but that's not the issue. It's not a matter of my opinion. You put him on the same moral level as Ho. I'd have thought a sensible person might be able to back that up.

Then again, it's you. So, there's that.

But he was only one of the founding fathers... 23 of the signers of the constitutional saw action in the revolutionary war...

How many wrote the Declaration of Independence?

If you've got rape and murder that you can charge to Jefferson's account, feel free to do so. Otherwise, why don't you stop making an outhouse of yourself?

fate

Not at all. Again, here's what I was rebutting:

The US had plenty of opportunities to take the side of Ho and later the Viet Minh before they became a fundamentally Communist organization but chose to ignore Ho's direct pleas

.

So, my citation:

Việt Minh (About this sound listen; abbreviated from Việt Nam Ðộc Lập Ðồng Minh Hội, English "League for the Independence of Vietnam") was a communist national independence coalition formed at Pac Bo on May 19, 1941

.

Is about 25 years after Ho made his representations to President Wilson. At which point in time the Viet Minh was not organized...

The time continuum moves forward not backwards, asshat.

rickyp wrote:fate

Not at all. Again, here's what I was rebutting:

The US had plenty of opportunities to take the side of Ho and later the Viet Minh before they became a fundamentally Communist organization but chose to ignore Ho's direct pleas

.

So, my citation:

Việt Minh (About this sound listen; abbreviated from Việt Nam Ðộc Lập Ðồng Minh Hội, English "League for the Independence of Vietnam") was a communist national independence coalition formed at Pac Bo on May 19, 1941

.

Is about 25 years after Ho made his representations to President Wilson. At which point in time the Viet Minh was not organized...

The time continuum moves forward not backwards, asshat.

Hey moron, You said "Ho and later the Viet Minh. "It was not founded until 1941!!!!!!

Wilson had not been in office for 25 years when the Viet Minh was "formed."

So, keep calling me names while you get everything wrong. Well played.

fate

You put him on the same moral level as Ho.

Did I?
I said he was a slave holder and was known to have used his female slaves as concubines.
In my books that is an enormous moral flaw. But not in yours?
This behaviour was only for his personal own benefit.

Ho was guilty of organizing democides against his political opponents, both colonials and those Vietnamese who opposed Vietnamese independence. In seeking independence for his people he committed acts of questionable morality.... But he did so with a larger goal.

He is not that different from American revolutionaries who committed immoral acts against Loyalists. Nor that different from nationalist revolutionaries of many places. We accept the bombing of the King David Hotel today by Israelis as an act that furthered the independence of Israel for instance. At the time it was an act of terror.
We accept that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were bombed to deliver a greater good.

Whatever Ho did on his drive to national independence was recourse after a thousand years of war in Viet Nam. They were occupied by foreigners (Cambodians, Chinese, French, Japanese, French again and finally by the US) for a very long time. They constantly struggled to achieve their independence. And whenever they reached out to nations that should have been sympathetic to their aspirations, (The US) who had shown the world that a struggle for national independence was possible .... he was rebuffed.
He did what he had to do to achieve freedom for his people. It wasn't always moral. But that doesn't mean that his aspirations weren't inspired by language and acts of previous revolutions and previous independence movements... All Obama did was recognize that the original aspirations of the VietNamese were modelled after the US.
Which, as the speech Ho made quoted earlier indicates, is simply fact.

As is the fact that reverence of historical figures is also complicated by the squalid details of their actual lives. Jefferson was a slaveholder. Other revolutionary Americans committed murder, robbery and rape in the pursuit of their goals... Paul Revere was an incompetent soldier ...
we accept that things happened along the way that weren't moral or always complimentary to the ideal image we would like to hold of our forbears....
However, you judge Obama to an impossible level and ignore those realities ...
A result of Obama Derangement Syndrome...

rickyp wrote:A result of Obama Derangement Syndrome...

No, your attempts to rationalize what Ho did are nothing less than DFDS.

You need help.