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Post 23 Aug 2012, 12:35 pm

I look forward to you taking up the results of climate prediction models with as much enthusiasm, DF...

From the same article:
Berry cautions that just because the model has worked in the past, doesn't mean it will work this time. "As scholars and pundits well know, each election has unique elements that could lead one or more states to behave in ways in a particular election that the model is unable to correctly predict," Berry said in a statement. Some of those factors include the timeframe of the current economic data used in the study (the data used was taken five months before the November election, but Berry and Bickers plan to update it with more current data come September) as well as tight races. States that are very close to a 50-50 split, the authors warn, can fall in an unexpected direction.


As noted before, certainty is for fools - even these guys are smart enough to note the limitations of their predictive modeling.
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Post 23 Aug 2012, 1:31 pm

danivon wrote:I look forward to you taking up the results of climate prediction models with as much enthusiasm, DF...

From the same article:
Berry cautions that just because the model has worked in the past, doesn't mean it will work this time. "As scholars and pundits well know, each election has unique elements that could lead one or more states to behave in ways in a particular election that the model is unable to correctly predict," Berry said in a statement. Some of those factors include the timeframe of the current economic data used in the study (the data used was taken five months before the November election, but Berry and Bickers plan to update it with more current data come September) as well as tight races. States that are very close to a 50-50 split, the authors warn, can fall in an unexpected direction.


As noted before, certainty is for fools - even these guys are smart enough to note the limitations of their predictive modeling.


Still, that they've been within 20 EV of every election since 1980 is quite heartwarming for those of us who hope for some change.
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Post 23 Aug 2012, 2:30 pm

Given that the model is new, and being retro-tested, it's not necessarily that impressive - they will have come up with rules based on observation anyway, so are likely to have been confirming those apply. It doesn't necessarily mean that those rules are good enough to be predictive, just that they've been consistent in the past. If they've not been rigorous enough, they may have succumbed to confirmation bias

Additionally, that's only 8 elections, which is not a very large number to calibrate by.
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Post 23 Aug 2012, 6:32 pm

A model that correctly predicts - in advance - eight straight elections would be a damn fine model. So fine, in fact, that the posts and links about it above set off my "smell test" alarm. I decided to look into this further. What I'm trying to discern is whether this model was created over 32 years ago, and has, without alteration to the model, been correct each time since, or whether the model was created within the last four years or so, and was designed around retrospectively giving the proper answer for the last eight elections.

The difference is important, though not necessarily critical. To understand what I mean I have to get a bit deep here. There are essentially two ways to create a model. In method #1 you think about causes and effects - about what should influence behavior going forward - and then base your model on that. This is basically an intuitive approach, but one that could be very well informed by experience and knowledge. You have to be smart to get a good model this way. Method #2 requires no real intuitive smarts, just a lot of data and some fast computers. What you do is take something like eight past instances of what you want to predict going forward, and collect data about the conditions present at those eight times. Then you let the computer figure out what combination of data points correlates best with the eight known outcomes.

Allow me to use a frivolous example to illustrate. Say I want to predict, at the beginning of the season, who will win the World Series. Method #1: I decide, since I'm a baseball genius, and have been following the sport closely for decades, that certain key stats are likely to be most critical - perhaps on-base percentage of my starters over the last three seasons and the average ERA of my pitching staff over the last two seasons, at a weighting of 5 to 3. Simple model. I publish it and hope for the best. Eight years later, when it's proven to be right every single time, I'm hailed a genius. (Or as someone who's very lucky!) Method # 2: I collect all sorts of extraneous data about the last eight World Series winners versus all other teams and perform some very fancy factor analysis and other statistical tours de force. I discover - contrary to anyone's intuitive suspicion - that a combination of average distance traveled to away games during August plus number of doubles hit by infielders, when weighted properly, is a perfect predictor of the LAST eight winners. Whodathunkit? I publish my model - no one pays it much attention.

I said above that "The difference is important, though not necessarily critical." In the frivolous baseball example you can see the important difference. But it may turn out that model #1 fails on the ninth attempt at prediction whereas the silly model works just fine in predicting the next winner. I purposely picked silly factors for baseball model #2, but in fact that backward-looking method is a damn fine way to make a good model. However, until it's proven itself in practice, getting all excited and saying "Prepare to buckle up boys; freeman2, bust out yer wallet" may be investing a bit too much a bit prematurely.

The model in question is based on the "economic indicators" of "state and national unemployment rates [and] per capita income". These might or might not be really, really critical variables; they might or might not have predictive value. According to Berry and Bickers they, when massaged the right way, retrospectively predict the last eight elections. Danivon (I see just now that we're cross-posting and that he's said much the same thing as I'm saying but MUCH more tersely) says eight instances isn't a rigorous enough test. But a lot of those elections were very close - I think it's significant.

How do we know Berry and Bickers didn't devise their model 32 or more years ago? Here's a pic of Berry: he's too young. Image
Bickers looks older, but according to his bio he only got his BA in 1981. Unlikely he and Berry worked together back than and both ended up at CU today. (Bickers' bio, oddly, has no data on which to base an age estimate other than the pic; that could be horribly out of date.

You'd never know from the press reports that this model was just created recently. The several different reports I found, including THIS press release at the CU website, sure make it sound like the model was created way back when. Maybe it was, but I doubt it. After it had been right six times running - prospectively! - these profs would surely have published and reaped their just plaudits. Read the Bickers bio - there's no mention of it, yet it would have been a HUGE feather in his cap.

When one thinks that it's been prospectively right eight times in a row one is naturally going to be more trusting of it than if one realizes it's been created specifically to be retroactively correct. I strongly suspect that Dr. Fate has fallen into that trap, which explains his undue enthusiasm. Sorry to burst your bubble DF.

Now all that said, the real problem with the retrospective method of model-creation is this: they may have programmed their computer not just to predict eight past elections, but those eight plus one more - in other words, they could have (figuratively speaking) said to the computer, "Find me a small set of simple factors that correctly predict the past eight and also show Romney winning." I accuse these profs of no such practice; I merely note that it's possible. It might also be possible to say to the computer, "Find me a small set of simple factors that correctly predict the past eight and also show Obama winning re-election." In fact, a potentially unlimited number of sets of factors (if you had enough data to plug in and a strong enough computer) could be found both ways. Then the best way to proceed might be to see how much computing time it took the computer to find pro-Obama sets versus pro-Romney sets!

The proof of Drs. Berry and Bicker's pudding will come, to a very small degree, a few months from now, then a bit more in another four years, and more in yet another four, and 32 years from now DF might be able to say, "I told ya' so!" :smile:
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Post 23 Aug 2012, 9:24 pm

Yawn...I looked at unemployment for the past eight elections. If you based the model on whether the Republicans or Democrats would win the White House based on whether unemploment rose or fell during the previous four years, the model would be 4-4. (see unemployment numbers here: http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0104719.html

Ah, but if you tweak it to say that even if unemployment goes does for a Democratic president but it is still over 5.6% then you will lose things change. So, unemployment fell under Carter from 7.7% to 7.1% so he still loses; And you ignore that unemployment increased under Reagan and under Bush I because they are Republicans. Ok, they say they used unemployment and per capita numbers--how do they explain the 2000 election where unemployment decreased over the prior four years and per capita income increased substantially? See per capita income numbers here: http://www.indexmundi.com/facts/united- ... per-capita

Unemployment went up from 1980-1984 and per capital income rose less than under Carter (8% versus 8.5) but Reagan got elected. Bush II got reelected with a rising unemployment rate and
per capital income only rising 5%--how did that happen? Given that if you combine unemployment and per capital income you cannot predict results (the two main criteria they said they used), what are they using for predicting these results? I realize they used state by state results but I am not buying it. I don't even get their caveat that if the state are close that may effect things--shouldn't their criteria dictate the results? I understand the calculations are done state by state but why should these results should so much different than what is going on nationally?

What if their criterias was simple--Democratic presidents with unemployment over 5.6% lose (so Carter loses). I guess Democrats win if unemployement stays under 5.6% (so Clinton gets reelected) Republicans win if per capital rises more than under Bush I (3.5%). Gore's loss in 2000 is explained because Florida's economic numbers were worse than than the national average (or some other cherry-picking idea to explain how Gore could lose with low unemployment and high per capita income increases)

I am still counting on making $40 this election....;
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Post 24 Aug 2012, 12:27 am

Purple,

I wanted to find a 'predicitive model' for UK general elections that I've seen. It is astoundingly coincident with the outcomes, especially as the criterium used is the home colours of the football team that wins the preceding FA Cup (or the league). I can't find the link though.

Anyway, thanks for showing in more detail the reasons why this model and press release may not mean very much.
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Post 24 Aug 2012, 5:37 am

BTW, for anyone with the time, here's a fine way to make yourself into a famous political scientist:

Devise umpteen different prediction models. Write each one down on a separate sheet of paper. Go to a notary public and have each sheet dated and stamped. Wait 32 years, then see if any of the models correctly predicted eight elections. Discard all that didn't perform and pretend they never existed. Publish the one good model and enjoy.

EDIT: When it comes to political prognostication, Charlie Cook stands out as an expert with a real track record. He has an article at National Journal today that doesn't mention Berry and Bickers but seems to be an indirect reply to their prediction. Here's his second paragraph:
Still, this race shouldn’t be as tight as it is. Whether one looks at polling measurements of whether voters think the country is headed in the right direction, at consumer confidence, or at key economic measurements such as growth in gross domestic product, deviations in the unemployment rate, or the change in real personal disposable income, it is puzzling, to say the least, why polls show President Obama and Mitt Romney running neck and neck. Incumbents generally don’t get reelected with numbers like we are seeing today.
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Post 24 Aug 2012, 7:00 am

Maybe the polls are wrong. Maybe something has shifted and the economc factors don't mean the same think to voters that they did before. Maybe there are other factors that were not present (or were not contra-indicative to the economic numbers) but are now.

Whatever, it is indeed odd that Obama is doing better in the polls than the economy would suggest he should be. That itself indicates some strength and should concern Republicans - what is it that they need to do to convince people who 'ought to' already be convinced?
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Post 24 Aug 2012, 8:37 am

danivon wrote:Whatever, it is indeed odd that Obama is doing better in the polls than the economy would suggest he should be. That itself indicates some strength and should concern Republicans - what is it that they need to do to convince people who 'ought to' already be convinced?


Watch the polls as the election gets closer.

The President's likability is keeping him afloat. As he continues the relentless (and largely baseless) attacks on Romney, the President is going to lose a bit of that. As the economy fails to improve, his share of the electorate will shrink.

This from freeman2 is hilarious:

Yawn...I looked at unemployment for the past eight elections. If you based the model on whether the Republicans or Democrats would win the White House based on whether unemploment rose or fell during the previous four years, the model would be 4-4. (see unemployment numbers here: http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0104719.html

Ah, but if you tweak it to say that even if unemployment goes does for a Democratic president but it is still over 5.6% then you will lose things change. So, unemployment fell under Carter from 7.7% to 7.1% so he still loses; And you ignore that unemployment increased under Reagan and under Bush I because they are Republicans. Ok, they say they used unemployment and per capita numbers--how do they explain the 2000 election where unemployment decreased over the prior four years and per capita income increased substantially? See per capita income numbers here: http://www.indexmundi.com/facts/united- ... per-capita


Based on unemployment, what chance does the President have?

Back to the study--an opposing view based on more than emotion:

In a perfectly ordered society, in which humans acted in reliably rational ways and researchers had access to complete data on every possible influence, making a model like the ones above might be sufficient to predict an election. In reality, models are about as good as those governing where soon-to-be Hurricane Isaac may or may not land: They can point in the general direction, but they can't predict exactly how the dice will fall. The best possible prediction engine factors in both these broad factors and the forward-looking polls and markets that contribute clarity.
Our updated model, which does factor in polls and markets, still has Obama winning the election with 303 votes.
We searched for an explanation for difference by looking for data points that are uniquely different this year than in the historical elections. There is one glaringly obvious factor: the favorability difference between Obama and Romney.
Favorability is shockingly bad for Romney. Pollsters routinely ask questions like, "Do you have a favorable or unfavorable impression of …" for both Obama and Romney. Currently, the Pollster average has Obama with 48 percent favorability and 45 percent unfavorability, while Romney is lingering with 41 percent favorability and 47 percent unfavorability. Romney's consistent negative favorability to unfavorability split is unprecedented in American politics.


So, can Obama win in the face of a bad economy, massive deficits, government waste, crony capitalism, record debt, Biden's stupidity, and no specific plan to do anything differently based on likability alone?

You can believe what you want to believe. Just watch the trends. Wisconsin in play, positive trends all over the map, I like Romney's chances a lot. If the election was today, probably not. But, it's not and it's going in the right direction, inexorably.
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Post 24 Aug 2012, 8:38 am

Purple wrote:BTW, for anyone with the time, here's a fine way to make yourself into a famous political scientist:

Devise umpteen different prediction models. Write each one down on a separate sheet of paper. Go to a notary public and have each sheet dated and stamped. Wait 32 years, then see if any of the models correctly predicted eight elections. Discard all that didn't perform and pretend they never existed. Publish the one good model and enjoy.

EDIT: When it comes to political prognostication, Charlie Cook stands out as an expert with a real track record. He has an article at National Journal today that doesn't mention Berry and Bickers but seems to be an indirect reply to their prediction. Here's his second paragraph:
Still, this race shouldn’t be as tight as it is. Whether one looks at polling measurements of whether voters think the country is headed in the right direction, at consumer confidence, or at key economic measurements such as growth in gross domestic product, deviations in the unemployment rate, or the change in real personal disposable income, it is puzzling, to say the least, why polls show President Obama and Mitt Romney running neck and neck. Incumbents generally don’t get reelected with numbers like we are seeing today.


Right.

Incumbents generally don’t get reelected with numbers like we are seeing today.


They don't and he won't.
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Post 24 Aug 2012, 9:14 am

I am sorry, df, but what are you talking about? I was simply pointing that at least by using the two broad economic indicators the researchers indicated they used that you could not have predicted the last 8 elections. . Your comment on unemployment is thus inexplicable. Romney is going to lose, as that excerpt points out, because people don't like the guy and also because he has appeased far-right ideologues who are scaring the heck out of people with regard to Social Security, Medicare and women's health care.
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Post 24 Aug 2012, 9:57 am

freeman2 wrote:I am sorry, df, but what are you talking about? I was simply pointing that at least by using the two broad economic indicators the researchers indicated they used that you could not have predicted the last 8 elections.


Well then, obviously, you are in the wrong profession. Maybe this article will help you.

Romney is going to lose, as that excerpt points out, because people don't like the guy and also because he has appeased far-right ideologues who are scaring the heck out of people with regard to Social Security, Medicare and women's health care.


Sure. Then again, isn't that true of every Republican? You guys trot out these tropes all the time and they don't work--probably because they're not true.
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Post 24 Aug 2012, 10:33 am

free
Romney is going to lose, as that excerpt points out, because people don't like the guy and also because he has appeased far-right ideologues who are scaring the heck out of people with regard to Social Security, Medicare and women's health care.


df
Sure. Then again, isn't that true of every Republican? You guys trot out these tropes all the time and they don't work--probably because they're not true
.

Akin's outspoken position, if not his woeful misinformation, seems to have affected at least one state race. Missouri. Where most polls had Romney ahead comfortably, the latest rasmussen has Obama ahead one point. (And Rasmussen had Romney head by as much as 9 points).
Where the election was once, just about the economy, now its about several cultural issues... So economic indicators may not be so important.
As well, I'll point to Nate Silver's analysis which showed that the most important indicator of how an incumbetn does is the direction of the economy. Even an economy only limping in the right direction has been enough in all past elections to propel an incumbent to re-election.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_ ... _president

Obama starts with 96% of the black vote and 67% of the Hispanic vote. Obama leads with women. And probably is increasing his leadith them, as the old white men of the GOP express their views more clearly ...
Gonna take a lot of angry old white men to over come those demographic odds...
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Post 24 Aug 2012, 10:46 am

rickyp wrote:Akin's outspoken position, if not his woeful misinformation, seems to have affected at least one state race. Missouri. Where most polls had Romney ahead comfortably, the latest rasmussen has Obama ahead one point. (And Rasmussen had Romney head by as much as 9 points).
Where the election was once, just about the economy, now its about several cultural issues... So economic indicators may not be so important.


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Yeah, I can see it now: November rolls around and all anyone can think about is not the economy. Nope, it's what one Democrat-funded moron said in August. Sure, it could happen . . .

As well, I'll point to Nate Silver's analysis which showed that the most important indicator of how an incumbetn does is the direction of the economy. Even an economy only limping in the right direction has been enough in all past elections to propel an incumbent to re-election.


Awesome!

First, it's not limping in the right direction. In fact, the CBO says that if we go off the "fiscal cliff" (which Obama has done NOTHING about), we're looking at a recession next year.

Second, we've not had an election with this bad of an economy after a "recovery" in . . . . 70 years? And, how many of those incumbents had racked up $5T in Debt along the way?

Obama starts with 96% of the black vote and 67% of the Hispanic vote. Obama leads with women. And probably is increasing his leadith them, as the old white men of the GOP express their views more clearly ...
Gonna take a lot of angry old white men to over come those demographic odds...


He won't get either of those percentages. Getting 96% of the black vote would mean his support of gay marriage and the black church response to it had zero effect. Plus, "Hope and Change" has lost a lot of its luster. He won't get 67% of the Latino vote either. And, the enthusiasm isn't on his side this time. The most enthusiastic voters are the ones who want to see him take on a new title, "former President."
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Post 24 Aug 2012, 10:59 am

fate

Second, we've not had an election with this bad of an economy after a "recovery" in . . . . 70 years


Yeah. Well that was a helluva financial crash in 08. And you are right, that its taking time to crawl out of the crater. Same as back in the 30's.
But do people blame Obama for the situation?
According to Pew, not the Middle Class..

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/category/the-agenda/