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- rickyp
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12 Aug 2013, 12:34 pm
I wouldn't worry so much about the teens.
In the 90's 45% of MacDonalds labour were teens. Today its only 33%.And going down. Seniors are now a growing component....
Teens are less likely to work today than in the 80's and 90s .... for one thing.
For the benefits of part time labour are less attractive to parents than higher grades and extra curriculars that attract scholarship money ....
The notion that the price of fast food would go up if the minimum wage were substantially higher is controversial. There have been studies that suggest both a small increase and a large increase. However, comeptitive forces would probably ensure that fast food franchises competing with each other would stay in about the same competitive range they are now.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/clareoconno ... -per-hour/If fast food went up a buck a meal .... that would probably not impact anyone's life in a significant way, except to make healtheir choices more competitive with the junk.
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- danivon
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12 Aug 2013, 12:46 pm
bbauska wrote:How close is that to actual populations in the US?
That is of all restaurants, not just certain chains. Perhaps you didn't notice that freeman mentioned
other chains being more likely to employ teens?
He was clear about where he got his 'evidence' - his own observation.
Interesting that after the bit you quoted - immediately after it - comes this:
Restaurant Opportunities
Centers United (ROC-United), a nonprofit restaurant
worker organization representing thousands of
workers, surveyed over 4,000 workers nationwide and
found that women and people of color tend to be
concentrated in lower-paying jobs in the restaurant
industry compared to white workers, and that many
workers reported discriminatory hiring, promotion a
nd disciplinary practices. ROC-United also found a
$3.71 wage gap between white workers and workers of
color, and that 28 percent of workers reported
being passed over for a promotion based on race.
The report mentions nothing about age, so can't be used as any evidence whatsoever about 'teens' either. But it does mention race - that non-whites are paid less and are discriminated against.
Oops.
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- bbauska
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12 Aug 2013, 3:04 pm
danivon wrote:bbauska wrote:How close is that to actual populations in the US?
That is of all restaurants, not just certain chains. Perhaps you didn't notice that freeman mentioned
other chains being more likely to employ teens?
He was clear about where he got his 'evidence' - his own observation.
Interesting that after the bit you quoted - immediately after it - comes this:
Restaurant Opportunities
Centers United (ROC-United), a nonprofit restaurant
worker organization representing thousands of
workers, surveyed over 4,000 workers nationwide and
found that women and people of color tend to be
concentrated in lower-paying jobs in the restaurant
industry compared to white workers, and that many
workers reported discriminatory hiring, promotion a
nd disciplinary practices. ROC-United also found a
$3.71 wage gap between white workers and workers of
color, and that 28 percent of workers reported
being passed over for a promotion based on race.
The report mentions nothing about age, so can't be used as any evidence whatsoever about 'teens' either. But it does mention race - that non-whites are paid less and are discriminated against.
Oops.
I did read the entire piece. I think that the payment of wages to anyone doing the same job for the same time at the same quality should be paid the same, regardless of race/sex/age. Did you read something from ROC-United explaining the difference in pay? I did not.
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- danivon
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13 Aug 2013, 12:18 am
Well, the bit I quoted about people being passed over for promotion is one explanation. Employers not always conforming to what you believe should be the case is another possibility.
I don't know why the disparity, but it does suggest that non-whites are more likely to be on minimuem wage jobs within the restaurant sector than whites.
Which was kind of freeman's point, although we don't see anything in your offered evidence about teenagers. Gonna call my observations 'racist'?
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- Doctor Fate
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13 Aug 2013, 7:04 am
Is the safety net too wide?
Watch
this video. It is less than 6 minutes of a 40 minute special.
The guy only gets $200 a month from the government. The question is: why does he even get that?
The answer: because he doesn't want to work.
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- rickyp
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15 Aug 2013, 6:40 am
FAreed Zakkaria
And here, Corak explains, the United States is the great outlier. Simply put, the United States spends much less on the education and well-being of poor people, especially poor children, than any other rich country — and that retards their chances of escaping poverty.
A recent report by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development points out that the United States is one of only three rich countries that spends less on disadvantaged students than on other students — largely because education funding for elementary and secondary schools in the United States is tied to local property taxes.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ ... tml?hpid=zThe point behind social spending should be about social mobility. Providing an opportunity to move out of the lower socio economic levels. Examoning the places which provide this opportunity best, in the same way business look at best practices of successful companies, should provide guidance...
(The link is from todays Washington Post if it doesn't work)
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- GMTom
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15 Aug 2013, 6:43 am
providing an opportunity to move out?
So you want to give people more money, free cell phones, food stamps, etc etc and expect them to move out while they get by somewhat comfortably without doing anything? Would there not be a bigger kick in the pants to get to work if you gave them less reason to do do nothing and more reason to work?
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- Doctor Fate
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15 Aug 2013, 6:46 am
Giving money to cretins who will NOT work (as in the story I related above) does not "help social mobility." It simply funds irresponsible behavior.
The problem with our education system is not a lack of money. It is the unions and the social engineering/tinkering by politicians. Lousy teachers and teaching a variety of things that have nothing to do with learning skills useful in the 21st Century are the problems.
And, if it's just a lack of money, what's wrong with the Democrats? They had Congress and the Presidency for two years and did not pour money into the problem.
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- freeman3
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16 Aug 2013, 8:01 pm
I was swamped this week at work so I did not have time to respond. In my absence Dan cogently explained why the allegations of racism were absurd. Yes, I have observed in predominantly white suburbs white teenagers do not work at McDonalds. For that matter, teenagers of other races who are upper middle class do not work at McDonalds (of course in wealthier neighborhood there are more white teen-agers hence my observation about white teen-agers in the first place)The point I was making was in response to Tom's contention that teenagers working at fast food places do not need to make as much because they do not need to support a family. My observation would be that someone working at a fast food chain needs the money, because teen-agers from families who are comfortable are not often working at fast food chains. I did not think that was a controversial remark that it would be alleged I was making a racist comment--I was simply making an observation based on my anecdotal observations.
Incidentally, I had a trial on a somewhat routine auto accident case where the jury was only asked to decide liability (damages were agreed upon) It wound up being a hung jury--I had an Armenian middle-aged client whose English was not perfect and defendant was a young white woman. The anger of the jurors that voted against plaintiff was palpable (and jurors voting for plaintiff were saying they never would have given in) Of course, I don't know for certain what was causing this vehemence among jurors, but It seemed out of place. Were those strong feelings based in part because my client was foreign--born and a minority? I can't say for certain, but the strong feelings seemed out of place, that's for sure.
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- Doctor Fate
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21 Aug 2013, 1:47 pm
So,
this happened in England. It wasn't a Wal-Mart exploiting its workers; it was Bank of America.
A 21-year-old intern who worked grueling hours at Bank of America's London office died just a week before his internship was to conclude.
Moritz Erhardt, who studied at the WHU-Otto Beisheim School of Management in Vallendar, Germany, reportedly had worked until 6 a.m. for three days straight and was found dead in his flat. Erhardt, who suffered from epilepsy, collapsed in his shower, according to reports. Erhardt had studied at the University of Michigan's Ross School of Business and left three months ago.
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- danivon
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21 Aug 2013, 3:22 pm
Doctor Fate wrote:So,
this happened in England. It wasn't a Wal-Mart exploiting its workers; it was Bank of America.
A 21-year-old intern who worked grueling hours at Bank of America's London office died just a week before his internship was to conclude.
Moritz Erhardt, who studied at the WHU-Otto Beisheim School of Management in Vallendar, Germany, reportedly had worked until 6 a.m. for three days straight and was found dead in his flat. Erhardt, who suffered from epilepsy, collapsed in his shower, according to reports. Erhardt had studied at the University of Michigan's Ross School of Business and left three months ago.
Cause of death is not established yet. He was at least being paid as an intern (45k pro rated), but a work culture where people feel they have to put in over 12 hours a day is not healthy (and may well not be legal here).
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- GMTom
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21 Aug 2013, 4:34 pm
my kids both worked, all but one or two of their friends worked, the kids down the street ...they work. I go to the local McDonalds and yes they have more black kids than the neighborhood has but wait, there are those kids down the street in the back cooking burgers. I see a bunch of white kids and where I live is on the edge of the city limits, they have fewer job opportunities in the city than do they have a mile away...so that means nothing. Kids most certainly do work, pointing out a few who do not and implying any that do need to make a living wage is absurd.
So do you make exceptions for kids? Suddenly these places will want to hire only kids! Now you are making work even more difficult on the poor you want to protect. Force all to pay twice what they currently are? Then fewer are hired and jobs are lost, the first to feel that pain ...those you are trying to help! Or here's an idea, let the market work, McDonalds here simply can not find enough employees willing to work minimum wage, they start at about $9 an hour here and the older workers not working when the school kids are, they make even more ...the market is working!
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- rickyp
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22 Aug 2013, 11:20 am
tom
do you make exceptions for kids? Suddenly these places will want to hire only kids! Now you are making work even more difficult on the poor you want to protect. Force all to pay twice what they currently are? Then fewer are hired and jobs are lost, the first to feel that pain ...those you are trying to help! Or here's an idea, let the market work, McDonalds here simply can not find enough employees willing to work minimum wage, they start at about $9 an hour here and the older workers not working when the school kids are, they make even more ...the market is working
If a minimum wage exists that is a living wage, one must assume, safely, that every company affected by the need to pay more for labour wil be affected in the same way...
Their competitive postion will not be altered since their competitors all face a similar restriction. (macdonalds v subway etc.)
Why would you assume that means that they would cut their staff size? Most of these operatios are finely engineered to provide the most efficient staff size to operate - and provide the required level of service and product quality. They wouldn't sacrifice those standards.
So, they have two genuine choices. 1. Raise prices. 2. Absorb the cost.
If this means the every price of a Big Mac goes up 25 cents.... thats probably not an earth shattering change. (especially since competitors prices will also increase..) However, if that minor change means that a living wage can be paid .... it makes a significant difference to the employees. If the goal of a nation is to eradicate poverty, than entire industries shouldn't rely upon employees who are working poor . Unless a living wage is provided through a minimum wage law, society institutionalizes poverty.
Tom, if the teen age employee is doing the same job as the adult employee, and doing it equally as well - is it fair to compensate him less for his labour?
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- GMTom
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22 Aug 2013, 12:09 pm
when costs go up, demand goes down ...pretty simple stuff?
as demand goes down, employees are let go ...again, pretty simple isn't it?
Doesn't matter that everyone's costs will go up, inflation is not something we want to embrace is it? Or the salaries for ALL go up and your minimum wage becomes absolutely meaningless.
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- rickyp
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22 Aug 2013, 2:13 pm
tom
when costs go up, demand goes down ...pretty simple stuff?
as demand goes down, employees are let go ...again, pretty simple isn't it?
Doesn't matter that everyone's costs will go up, inflation is not something we want to embrace is it? Or the salaries for ALL go up and your minimum wage becomes absolutely meaningless.
If you actually had evidence of this happening whenever the minimum wage HAS been raised ...you might have something.
But in the past, raising the minimum wage has never had a desultory effect on the economy.
The senseless thing about the current minimum wage law is that it was never set with a COLA ...
So the same debate, with the same obections (yours) is brought up every time. And when the objections are over come, and a raise inmplemented, the industries that exploit the working poor make their minor adjustments and move on...