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- rickyp
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16 Jan 2013, 7:50 am
bbauska
So, if it is violating the Constitution, and you think it can be changed, are you willing to agree that these weapons are legal until the Amendment process is brought to fruition?
I don't know what you are driving at... I'll stipulate: currently the constitution protects ownership of fire arms including hand guns.
Laws banning hand guns would, currently, be unconstitutional.
However laws that restrict and regulate hand guns and other weapons can be constitutional. Those avenues should be pursued.
Gun violence is responsible for a constant slaughter in the US. Knowing that the slaughter is harder to stop because of Constitutional protections is not comforting. Its a very high price to pay for a liberty with dubious benefits.
My opinion is that it would be wise to change the Constitution if it prevents sensible action that would slow the death and injury toll. I'm not saying that achieving that wise course of action is probable . In fact I'm saying that it will probably take a period of concerted political activity and/or a few more events like Aurora or Sandy Hook. Unfortunately the likelihood of more mass shootings is almost a certainty.
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- bbauska
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16 Jan 2013, 8:46 am
You just answered my question about your position. I wanted to see if you realized that the position you were taking is unconstitutional. As long as you realize that, and accept that the amendment process be followed, we agree.
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- rickyp
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17 Jan 2013, 5:37 am
I wondered why data or research on gun violence was so hard to find. I wasn't aware that Congress had actually cut funding for such research by the CDC..
Wow. The Gun lobby fights to keep the American Public ignorant of objective research and facts...
And Congress is compliant to this extent.
Imagine if Congress had cut funding on the causes of lung cancer, because of pressure from the Tobacco Lobby?
CDC's funding of research on gun violence peaked at about $2.6 million in 1996. The results included findings such as the observation that homicides are significantly more likely to occur in households where a gun is keptt. The gun lobby pressured Congress to stop this line of inquiry, and in the mid-1990s legislators issued a series of advisory messages and some legal restrictions on agency actions.
Among other steps, legislators added a directive in the bill that funds CDC's injury prevention center that said "none of the funds … may be used to advocate or promote gun control." Congress also cut CDC's budget by the amount it was spending on gun violence research, without specifying where the cut should be made. Managers got the message and cut gun-related research.
http://news.sciencemag.org/scienceinsid ... gun-v.html
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- GMTom
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17 Jan 2013, 6:55 am
That's WONDERFUL news, you see Congress actually CAN cut spending if inspired to do so! Now if they can stop funding research into so many other things, maybe we can get back on track. Gee, it took 2.6 million to determine homicides were more likely to occur in homes where guns were kept!? seems kinda obvious to me that intruders will be shot by those same guns and an intruder is more likely to kill if confronted and accidental deaths are also going to happen, one word ...duh! (2.6 million to come up with that, I just did it for free.)
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- rickyp
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17 Jan 2013, 7:33 am
tom
That's WONDERFUL news, you see Congress actually CAN cut spending if inspired to do so! Now if they can stop funding research into so many other things, maybe we can get back on track. Gee, it took 2.6 million to determine homicides were more likely to occur in homes where guns were kept!? seems kinda obvious to me that intruders will be shot by those same guns and an intruder is more likely to kill if confronted and accidental deaths are also going to happen, one word ...duh! (2.6 million to come up with that, I just did it for free.)
A lot of things seem obvious to you Tom that are fallacies.
The reason that homicides are significantly more likely to occur in a household where guns are kept is because the members of the household are shooting each other. Not intruders.
You could try looking up the 1996 research ..
The reason that the NRA lobbied so hard to defund the CDC? In order to ensure there were no clear facts. No clear evidence. Its as if they knew what that evidence would indicate . (Remind anyone of the Tobacco lobby?)
Because of the NRA's successful campaign to eliminate the scientific research into the public health effect of firearms, very few researchers specialize in the field anymore, University of California, Davis, professor Garen Wintemute told Reuters. He said there isn't enough money to sustain research.
Since there is a lack of funding for independent research, the gun debate has been lacking in unimpeachable statistics that could effect a change in the status quo.
As it stands, the main available statistics regarding the gun debate are raw gun homicide and suicide stats collected through the FBI, international data and data from groups with a direct stake in the gun debate — for instance, pro-gun stats from the NRA and pro-gun control stats from the Brady Campaign To Prevent Gun Violence.
The scientists writing the letter to Biden wrote that, effectively, the NRA has successfully hamstrung a credible gun control conversation. When the only statistics available are imperfect, it becomes that much easier to disregard them.
Read more:
http://www.businessinsider.com/cdc-nra- ... z2IF6f83tQ
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- danivon
- Ambassador
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17 Jan 2013, 11:42 am
GMTom wrote:That's WONDERFUL news, you see Congress actually CAN cut spending if inspired to do so! Now if they can stop funding research into so many other things, maybe we can get back on track.
Oh, jeez, you really are anti-science!
Govt funded research into fracking has paid off massively. Govt funded research into diseases and other things is also pretty useful. Only a real Yahoo would applaud cuts in research into the causes of thousands of American deaths a year.
Gee, it took 2.6 million to determine homicides were more likely to occur in homes where guns were kept!? seems kinda obvious to me that intruders will be shot by those same guns and an intruder is more likely to kill if confronted and accidental deaths are also going to happen, one word ...duh! (2.6 million to come up with that, I just did it for free.)
That includes domestic murders as well, which are likely to be one of the biggest factors. Seems you aren't quite up to the mark with your (as you now doubt think of it 'common sense').
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- bbauska
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17 Jan 2013, 11:55 am
Pretty sad that the Congress does not put forth the fortitude to do the right thing and would rather "prostitute" themselves...
"Always stand on principle, even if you stand alone."
- John Adams
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- GMTom
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17 Jan 2013, 2:34 pm
No kidding, all the stated is beyond obvious (I did mention accidental deaths) all this is blindingly obvious and we didn't need millions of dollars spent to tell us so. If you seem to absolutely require the exact specifics, then I guess the millions of dollars were well spent and you seem to indicate further funding of the obvious is necessary. Gee, houses that have guns will have more deaths from guns ...who woulda thunk it?
Here's another example, houses that have multiple bags of potato chips in them tend to have fatter people living in those houses.
Houses with running water in them have more drownings
households that have drug dealers living in them will experience more crime.
money well spent or funding well cut?
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- Doctor Fate
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18 Jan 2013, 8:56 am
Since the Federal Assault Weapons Ban expired in September 2004, murder and overall violent-crime rates have fallen. In 2003, the last full year before the law expired, the U.S. murder rate was 5.7 per 100,000 people, according to the Federal Bureau of Investigation's Uniform Crime Report. By 2011, the murder rate fell to 4.7 per 100,000 people. One should also bear in mind that just 2.6% of all murders are committed using any type of rifle.
The large-capacity ammunition magazines used by some of these killers are also misunderstood. The common perception that so-called "assault weapons" can hold larger magazines than hunting rifles is simply wrong. Any gun that can hold a magazine can hold one of any size. That is true for handguns as well as rifles. A magazine, which is basically a metal box with a spring, is trivially easy to make and virtually impossible to stop criminals from obtaining. The 1994 legislation banned magazines holding more than 10 bullets yet had no effect on crime rates.
Ms. Feinstein's new proposal also calls for gun registration, and the reasoning is straightforward: If a gun has been left at a crime scene and it was registered to the person who committed the crime, the registry will link the crime gun back to the criminal.
Nice logic, but in reality it hardly ever works that way. Guns are very rarely left behind at a crime scene. When they are, they're usually stolen or unregistered. Criminals are not stupid enough to leave behind guns that are registered to them. Even in the few cases where registered guns are left at crime scenes, it is usually because the criminal has been seriously injured or killed, so these crimes would have been solved even without registration.
Canada recently got rid of its costly "long-gun" registry for rifles in part because the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and the Chiefs of Police could not provide a single example in which tracing was of more than peripheral importance in solving a gun murder.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... inion_main
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- rickyp
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18 Jan 2013, 11:59 am
Is the WSJ somehow claiming that the lower murder rate is a result of the end of the assault weapons ban? Or are they saying that because crime rates are decreasing that an assault weapons ban is unnecessary. (Sandy Hook and Aurora contradict that conclusion....
Besides Fate: the last paragraph is a complete misrepresentation. The Police Chiefs Association campaigned aggressively against ended the registration because it was used extensively to check on ownership of guns by police for various reasons. (before arrest warrants were served, when men received restraining orders etc.) It was seen as primarily a preventative tool.
Since the biggest threat to economic health in the US, and to the Federal budget, is rising health care costs....here's some interesting facts .
Nearly 300 people are shot everyday in America.
And the financial costs of those gunshots wounds is rising; improved trauma care means hospitals now save more gunshot victims, which in turn adds to larger, long-term health care and rehabilitation costs.
A 2005 study of hospital charges for firearm injuries in Pennsylvania found that the average charge for inpatient hospitalization due to firearm injuries was $30,814. That figure was more than double what gunshot injuries cost hospitals between 1996-1998.
An in-depth investigation on gunshot violence by the Milwaukee Journal in 2006 reported that the average bill for a shooting patient treated at the city's Froedtert Hospital was $38,000. For gunshot victims who suffered spinal damage, the bill regularly reached six figures.
Bloomberg News reported:
The cost of U.S. gun violence in work lost, medical care, insurance, criminal-justice expenses and pain and suffering amounted to as much as $174 billion in 2010, according to data compiled by the Pacific Institute for Research and Evaluation in Calverton, Maryland.
source and links for data:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eric-boeh ... r=Politics
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- GMTom
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18 Jan 2013, 12:11 pm
and potato chips cause obesity, we should outlaw them as well? Simply because you can point to a possible savings or benefit does not relate to a need to act.
source:
http://yourlife.usatoday.com/fitness-fo ... 48785290/1you know, I was thinking...
Heroin, cocaine, Meth, these are really bad for society, we should make them illegal, that way nobody will be harmed by them.
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- freeman2
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18 Jan 2013, 12:55 pm
Wow an economist for the sentencing commission pens an article on gun control. Why would the Wall Street Journal think that this guy, with no discernible expertise has anything useful to say about gun control? This guy is funny; let's look at this "arguments":
(1) he says that the Bushmaster is only a military style weapon because it is not an automatic weapon and because it fired a smaller bullet. The first point is obvious and silly to point out; the second appears to be only of marginal importance. He then makes the point that no military would use the bushmaster ....yes, because the military uses automatic weapons. No one is this debate was confused about whether the Bushmaster was an automatic or not, that is not why we consider them to be military style weapons. Shooting six times a second with large magazines makes military style weapons;J
(2) He says the Bushmaster is a hunting rifle...for those who like to shoot their six times a second I guess it could be...doesn't seem particularly fair to the deer but one of my relatives used to hunt squirrels with a shotgun so you do what you have to do to get your meat, I guess...
(3) He says Bushmaster is good for home defense too because one shot rifles may not be effective...hmm, did he just forget to mention that semi-automatic pistols are not affected by the ban? I would choose the pistol but he is the expert on guns
(4) he says that magazines can be used in hunting rifles as well as assault weapons...Ok, how abouy we ban these magazines for all weapons? Oh, but they are trivially easy for criminals to obtain? Yeah, very easy for criminals to obtain when they are legal but as for when they become illegal what his evidence for this bold statement?
(5)With regard to his statement that people were armed mass shootings could be stopped he conveniently leaves out recent shootings where there trained personnel at the scene who could not stop the shootings and doesn't analyze at all the problems with having untrained people making life or death decisions on whether to shoot or not
(6) he claims that there is no support for idea that the prior ban did not reduce gun deaths but doesn't point out that mass shootings declined during the ban and doubled since the ban was lifted.
DF, why quote people from the Wall Street Journal when you can make better arguments? This guy is playing slo-pitch softball....
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- bbauska
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18 Jan 2013, 1:00 pm
Or we could Constitutionally ban potato chips, soda larger that 16 oz., cigarettes et. al.
But wait, that would require political leadership throughout the amendment process.
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- rickyp
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18 Jan 2013, 1:17 pm
bbauska
Or we could Constitutionally ban potato chips, soda larger that 16 oz., cigarettes et. al.
But wait, that would require political leadership throughout the amendment process
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When it was learned, after years over coming the obfuscation, and misdirection and out right lies of the tobacco industry, much has been done to try to limit tobacco use and the harm it causes.
And smoking rates, have gone done, as have the attendant health issues.
Didn't need to change the constitution to make that change.
If congress would eliminate the corn subsidies, the price of fructose would go up as would the cost of soft drinks and other junk food. That, and an educational program ..... would greatly affect the rate of consumption of pop and junk food. No constitutional change required there either.
And it doesn't appear that anything Obama wants to do about guns will require constitutional change.
It will require Congress to act, and that will take both leadership and a willingness to follow the wishes of voters and not the NRA. (Polls indicate that most of his proposals have solid to overwhelming support... )
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- bbauska
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18 Jan 2013, 1:38 pm
How very convenient for him.
If it is such a "will of the people issue" , why not make an amendment to stand for the safety of the children permanently.