rickyp wrote:rayjay
Certainly it is complex. We do have a legacy of slavery; we do have many one parent families; we have a more mobile population (so you are less likely to live near family); we have a less homogenous culture which makes government programs more difficult; we have many different states with very different economic circumstances.
Complexity seems to be an American trait when it comes to government programs. And the
excuses for failing are pretty complex too.
It needn't be so complex...
Sanders has suggested that looking at more successful societies, (that is successful in alleviating and eliminating poverty and crime) provides clues. He's right. (If the US is the greatest nation on earth, with the highest standard of living, it should be able to alleviate poverty of much smaller poorer countries do such a good job. They must, after all, be doing something right. )
No, Sanders is looking at
different societies. "Successful" is in the eye of the beholder. If they're so wonderful, why don't they have 20-30 million illegal aliens living there?
In other words, "success" is based on what the goal is. If the goal is a society in which everyone is equally oppressed by the government, then, sure, there are more "successful" countries. If the goal is to let a person go as far as their talent and work ethic will take them, I'd prefer our system. If Bernie doesn't like our system . . .
You want to make rules that help eliminate poverty that are simple?
- raise the minimum wage to a livable age.
- eliminate tuition for state universities for those that qualify
- provide medicare for all.(and run it comparably to the more efficient and effective systems in places like Norway ...)
- stop jailing people for minor non-violent drug offences
These are garbage suggestions. Every one of them costs money because NOTHING is "free."
Raising wages to a mandated "living wage" increases prices. It is a never-ending spiral. Prices go up, forcing up the "living wage," which then drives up prices. Additionally, jobs will be lost. Furthermore, is the goal of a society to make flipping burgers at McDonald's a "career?"
Eliminating tuition--who pays for that? What are the "unintended consequences?" I'll tell you one: more useless degrees in African LGBTQ History and other dopey "studies." This helps no one.
Medicare for all. Oh brother. The VA is all we need to see how well forcing Americans into government-run healthcare works. Even the ACA is resulting in cancelled programs, loss of doctors, and increasing prices. (Just wait until the Cadillac tax and all the other effects of the ACA finally kick in)
As for jailing people for non-violent drug offenses, it's already happened in California and guess what?
Crime is on the rise. In the 11 months since the passage of Prop 47, more than 4,300 state prisoners have been resentenced and then released. Drug arrests in Los Angeles County have dropped by a third. Jail bookings are down by a quarter. Hundreds of thousands of ex-felons have applied to get their previous drug convictions revised or erased.
But along with the successes have come other consequences, which police departments and prosecutors refer to as the “unintended effects”: Robberies up 23 percent in San Francisco. Property theft up 11 percent in Los Angeles. Certain categories of crime rising 20 percent in Lake Tahoe, 36 percent in La Mirada, 22 percent in Chico and 68percent in Desert Hot Springs.
It’s too early to know how much crime can be attributed to Prop 47, police chiefs caution, but what they do know is that instead of arresting criminals and removing them from the streets, their officers have been dealing with the same offenders again and again. Caught in possession of drugs? That usually means a misdemeanor citation under Prop 47, or essentially a ticket. Caught stealing something worth less than $950? That means a ticket, too. Caught using some of that $950 to buy more drugs? Another citation.
“It’s a slap on the wrist the first time and the third time and the 30th time, so it’s a virtual get-out-of-jail-free card,” said Shelley Zimmerman, who became San Diego’s police chief in March 2014. “We’re catching and releasing the same people over and over.”
Officers have begun calling those people “frequent fliers,” offenders who knew the specifics of Prop 47 and how to use it to their advantage. There was the thief in San Bernardino County who had been caught shoplifting with his calculator, which he said he used to make sure he never stole the equivalent of $950 or more. There was the “Hoover Heister” in Riverside, who was arrested for stealing vacuum cleaners and other appliances 13 different times over the course of three months, each misdemeanor charge followed by his quick release.
There was also the known gang member near Palm Springs who had been caught with a stolen gun valued at $625 and then reacted incredulously when the arresting officer explained that he would not be taken to jail but instead written a citation. “But I had a gun. What is wrong with this country?” the offender said, according to the police report.
And then, in San Diego, there was Rabenberg, who just weeks after being released because of Prop 47 was caught breaking the law again.
He was arrested for possession of meth on Jan. 2 and released from jail Jan. 3.
He was arrested for having drug paraphernalia on Feb. 6 and issued a citation.
He was arrested again for having drugs on Feb. 19. And then again on March 1. And then again on March 8. And then again on April 1.
By April 26, he had been arrested for six misdemeanors in less than four months and been released all six times, so he was free to occupy a table outside Starbucks when a man named Kevin Zempko arrived to have coffee with his wife. Zempko sat at a table next to Rabenberg, who was picking apart the seams of his coat and dumping the contents of his pockets onto the table: some nickels, two $1 bills, a few scraps of paper, a dingy plastic cup and a lighter. Zempko watched for a few seconds and concluded that Rabenberg was probably a vagrant and an addict. “I just felt bad for him,” he said.
Rabenberg noticed Zempko looking his way and began to stare back, mumbling, gesturing, standing up and now pulling something new from the pocket of his coat. It was a small wooden steak knife. Rabenberg slammed it down on the table. He picked it up again, jabbed at the air and started moving with the knife toward Zempko, who stood up and placed a chair between them.
Zempko had been in the Marine Corps for 11 years, trained to recognize a threat, and he escaped into the Starbucks and warned other customers. The manager called the police. Another Starbucks employee tried to pacify Rabenberg with a free cup of coffee. By the time two police officers arrived, Rabenberg seemed mostly confused and tired. “Disoriented” was how a police report described him. The officers handcuffed Rabenberg and placed him in the back of their police car.
“What will happen to him?” Zempko asked, because now the threat had passed and what he felt most was concern for Rabenberg, even guilt.
“He needs help,” Zempko told the officers, and they asked for his phone number and said they would call as part of their investigation. For a few days, Zempko waited and wondered: If they asked him to testify, would he push for leniency or a strict sentence? Which would be better for the city? Which would be better for Rabenberg?
But the police never called. The arrest had been for possession of drugs and brandishing a deadly weapon — both misdemeanors. Rabenberg was booked into jail and released three days later.
. . .
Rabenberg was arrested again May 29 with meth while panhandling near Balboa Park.
“Frustrating, frustrating,” said Zimmerman, the police chief, speaking not just about Rabenberg but all frequent fliers. “Just sending our officers to deal with problems that never get solved.”
He was arrested again for drugs July 4.
“We are enabling this kind of behavior,” said Bonnie Dumanis, the district attorney for San Diego County.
He was arrested again July 29 and Aug. 9.
“Aren’t we lulling him into a sense of security?” Goldsmith said. “How does it end? There’s no more incremental punishment. We let the behavior continue. We let the problems get worse. And all we can do is wait until he does something terrible, until he stabs somebody or kills somebody, and then we can finally take him off the street.”
Aug. 14, he was arrested for failing to appear in court on two drug charges. He was released Aug. 18.
On Aug. 28, he was arrested for possession of meth and then released Sept. 1.
On Sept. 19, he was due to appear in court for a hearing on three of his cases. A note on his file read, “Enough!” because Rabenberg had now been arrested 13 times.
He had failed to appear in court seven times. He had threatened the public safety. He had endangered his own health. “Who exactly is benefiting here?” said Goldsmith, the city attorney, who hoped that the judge would compile Rabenberg’s misdemeanors into one sentence and force him into an extended jail term or at least drug treatment.
Now the clerk called the courtroom to order. Lawyers wheeled in carts of alphabetized files. The judge announced the beginning of another busy docket in the era of Prop 47.
“Mr. Rabenberg,” the judge said, calling out the next case.
“Mr. Rabenberg,” he said again.
“Where is Mr. Rabenberg?” the judge asked, finally, but wherever Rabenberg was, he wasn’t here.
This is the system you would foist on the country? No thanks.
what would this do? Eliminate the need for a lot of the handouts that are delivered by the complex system of programs - thereby eliminating the programs.
Prove it. Prove that your suggestions would eliminate the welfare state.
Eliminate the debt for young people coming out of college.(Spurring their investment in others things at a younger age. Like cars, homes etc.)
False. When they get their useless degree, how will they afford homes?
Eliminate the current wasteful medical insurance system, and lower the cost of delivering the medical health sector for less than the current 17% of GDP. And eliminate the uncertainty that plagues families that might be only one medical calamity from poverty.
Increase wait times. Decrease availability of specialists. Increase corruption. Decrease number of doctors.
The solutions are simple. And Sanders is offering some...
No, YOUR solutions are simple. You can't demonstrate their effectiveness.
And his positions seem to be moving Clinton to adopt more progressive positions as well.
Great. We need more socialists in this country . . . like we need more people with Chicano Studies degrees.
14 Oct 2015, 3:17 pm 
