With regard to US position on boycotts, how about this statement from the Secretary of State. http://thehill.com/policy/international ... oycotts-of

I will concede that the threat of expulsion would never be a credible threat because it would never be in Israel's interests to risk a war with the entire Arab world.

Freeman:

I will concede that the threat of expulsion would never be a credible threat because it would never be in Israel's interests to risk a war with the entire Arab world.

I don't think that's it. I think that expulsion is too morally repugnant to the Israelis.

Ricky:

rayjay

How do you make peace with a society that hands out candy to children when 4 elderly religious men are murdered while praying

you have your outrages, they have theirs..

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/ ... xt-muslims

Ricky:

ray

Not sure that this one is true

His claims were almost certainly bogus. He was just inciting hate. And its a certainty some Arabs will now claim his bragging was indeed true...So, it really does damage like a true atrocity.

So, just to be clear on what is going on here. I'm talking about 5 religious people who were actually killed while they are praying and you bring up a bogus report from 4 months ago about a guy who claimed to kill children but didn't. {You should apologize for this, in my opinion.) The Israeli response is to jail the guy for inciting hatred.

Meanwhile, the Hamas response to the actual murder is to hand out candy to children. Although the head of Fatah is jawboned by Kerry to condemn the killing, there's this:

Sultan Abu Al-Einein, an adviser to Abbas, praised it on his Facebook page, calling it a "heroic operation" and posting graphic pictures showing dead Jews wearing prayer shawls. He called the terrorists "martyrs."

Several members of the Palestinian parliament's Fatah movement referred to the synagogue killers as "martyrs," and Fatah announced on Facebook that celebrants were handing out candy in honor of the attack.

Fatah spokesman Ahmad Assaf called the attack "the natural result" of "Israeli violations in Jerusalem."

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/Israel ... id/608211/

I guess you agree that this is "the natural result". You then posit this:

Really, the only option that Israel has that holds any hope for ending this is to attempt a solution that incorporates the ethic of reciprocity.

If Israel followed the ethic of reciprocity, there would be mass expulsions. They would pray at the Dome of the Rock and dig under it to find the temple mount. They would settle the entire West Bank including all of Hebron.

ray

So, just to be clear on what is going on here. I'm talking about 5 religious people who were actually killed while they are praying and you bring up a bogus report from 4 months ago about a guy who claimed to kill children but didn't. {You should apologize for this, in my opinion.) The Israeli response is to jail the guy for inciting hatred.

Actually Ray you were illustrating the evil Palestinians with the reports that candies were being given out to children as a celebration of the murders. And the use of an out rage that is similar, a soldier celebrating (falsely) murdering Palestinian children. is I think a fair comparison. Proportionate...

But, be that what you will, you seem to be saying to me, "they are committing more heinous acts then the Israelis and therefore deserve greater scorn.".
In the invasion of Gaza there are estimates of 1,000 dead. The IDF suffered 72 causualties. And yet we are told that the actions of the IDF and the damage done to Gaza were proportionate to the threat of the Gazan rockets.

And according to this report
http://972mag.com/a-palestinian-has-bee ... 014/88916/
A palestinian has been killed by the IDF every 4.2 days.
Do you really think there has been equivalent suffering? Or that one side is in any way genuinely moral compared to the other?
And if you want to consider the relative scale ... here's a view from Al Jazeera worth considering:

The total population of Gaza is estimated to be 1.816 million people, of which the Israeli army has so far killed 627, which amounts to 0.055 percent of the total population. If we were to add victiims of other Israeli bombings of Gaza, which would amount to what the eminent Israeli historian Ilan Pappe has termed "incremental genocide", the percentage would be much higher. But let's just get a snapshot of what those Israelis enjoy watching from the surrounding hilltops.
Putting numbers into perspective
The total population of the United States is 313.9 million people. Suppose some Martian power invaded the US and started bombing it coast to coast from land, sea, and air and killed precisely the same percentage of Americans, namely 0.055 percent. How many Americans would that be? It comes down to 172,852 people - men, women, children, and even entire familie

s.
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinio ... 76945.html

ray

If Israel followed the ethic of reciprocity, there would be mass expulsions. They would pray at the Dome of the Rock and dig under it to find the temple mount. They would settle the entire West Bank including all of Hebron.

I don't think you understand the ethic of reciprocity.
Do unto others as you would have them do to you....

It doesn't say, react with vengeance and hurt them worse then you've been hurt.
Turn the other cheek, and do kindness to those who torment you.
And its not Christian. Its Universal, including Judaism.

.thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.", Leviticus 19:18
"What is hateful to you, do not to your fellow man. This is the law: all the rest is commentary." Talmud, Shabbat 31a.
"And what you hate, do not do to any one." Tobit 4:15 4

If the Israelis decided that they wanted peace, they would know that they need good neighbors and need to be good neighbors. Their behaviors towards Palestinians would not be that of an occupying army, replete with apartheid like "security zones", oppressive control of Palestinian movement and use of resources, and arbitrary draconian justice.

rickyp wrote:fact that the US is opposed . . . (to) Israel.

I apologize for the editing of your post, but I wanted to just get to the truth. We've never had a President with such disdain for Israel. Of course, we've never had a President with more love for Iran either--not since the Revolution.

freeman

With regard to US position on boycotts, how about this statement from the Secretary of State

Which is why I said that the US would not participate. Nor would they retaliate on the EU. Economically that would be difficult. So would it be politically difficult.
They would be complaining that the EU is taking action to try and change Israel from doing things already condemned by the US.

Similarly, In the 70's and 80s Thatcher and Mulroney spearheaded the embargoes against South Africa against the wishes of the US (Reagan who had vetoed Congressional action). But the US didn't respond in any significant way to the countries enacting the embargoes. Later, Reagan understood later that he was on the wrong side of history.

fate

I apologize for the editing of your post, but I wanted to just get to the truth. We've never had a President with such disdain for Israel. Of course, we've never had a President with more love for Iran either--not since the Revolution

Of course, for you, its all Obama's fault.
How has he controlled the EU?

rickyp wrote:Similarly, In the 70's and 80s Thatcher and Mulroney spearheaded the embargoes against South Africa against the wishes of the US (Reagan who had vetoed Congressional action). But the US didn't respond in any significant way to the countries enacting the embargoes. Later, Reagan understood later that he was on the wrong side of history.

South Africa and Israel are comparable if you believe that Jews have no right to a homeland. The whites in South Africa were clearly remnants of colonialism. The fact that the "promised land" was ever known as "Palestine" owes to the Romans expelling the Jews and renaming the territory. If you think that makes Arab control of the area legitimate, then the two situations are analogous.

The "two-state solution" will only work when the Arabs recognize Israel's right to exist and to have defensible borders. Please demonstrate to me that the Palestinians agree to these two principles.

rickyp wrote:fate

I apologize for the editing of your post, but I wanted to just get to the truth. We've never had a President with such disdain for Israel. Of course, we've never had a President with more love for Iran either--not since the Revolution

Of course, for you, its all Obama's fault.
How has he controlled the EU?

You didn't apologize for editing my post.

My point had nothing to do with him controlling the EU. Frankly, I don't care what the EU does. It is filled with anti-Israeli bias and a growing Islamic population, which desires the destruction of Israel. The European population is slowly but surely dying out and is being replaced by immigrants.

fate

South Africa and Israel are comparable if you believe that Jews have no right to a homeland

The right to exist as a nation, (a homeland) does not bestow upon a nation the right to segregate, and treat another race as a lesser people. That's what Apartheid did. And that's what critics of Israels' occupation of the West bank say is the net effect of Israels security zones and security measures.

Most of the world has condemned the continued occupation of the West Bank by Israel. Including the US.

Fate

My point had nothing to do with him controlling the EU

But its still all Obama's fault?

rickyp wrote:fate

South Africa and Israel are comparable if you believe that Jews have no right to a homeland

The right to exist as a nation, (a homeland) does not bestow upon a nation the right to segregate, and treat another race as a lesser people. That's what Apartheid did. And that's what critics of Israels' occupation of the West bank say is the net effect of Israels security zones and security measures.

The critics are using hyperbole, at best.

If you believe Jews have a right to a homeland and that Israel as a defensible entity is that homeland, then this is not apartheid--not even close.

Most of the world has condemned the continued occupation of the West Bank by Israel. Including the US.

I don't. I know if they could rid themselves of the West Bank and KNOW that peace would ensue, they would do it in a heartbeat. Sadly, they know the opposite is true. If recent history in the Middle East has taught us anything, it is that even the appearance of weakness invites aggression.

Fate

My point had nothing to do with him controlling the EU

But its still all Obama's fault?

No, but he does despise Israel.

Ricky:

Actually Ray you were illustrating the evil Palestinians with the reports that candies were being given out to children as a celebration of the murders. And the use of an out rage that is similar, a soldier celebrating (falsely) murdering Palestinian children. is I think a fair comparison. Proportionate...

No, it is both an ignorant and outrageous comparison.

You are comparing the wrong actions of a lone individual who was subsequently punished by a democratically elected government with the actions of a political hierarchy that praises the murder of innocents who are praying.

Ricky:

Turn the other cheek, and do kindness to those who torment you.

Been there, done that. Never again.

Ray Jay wrote:Ricky:

Actually Ray you were illustrating the evil Palestinians with the reports that candies were being given out to children as a celebration of the murders. And the use of an out rage that is similar, a soldier celebrating (falsely) murdering Palestinian children. is I think a fair comparison. Proportionate...

No, it is both an ignorant and outrageous comparison.

You are comparing the wrong actions of a lone individual who was subsequently punished by a democratically elected government with the actions of a political hierarchy that praises the murder of innocents who are praying.

Furthermore, it's not a "report." We have seen the videos.

What kind of sick, twisted world view is required to celebrate murder--not war, but murder?

What threat did those rabbis pose? Were there phylacteries a danger to Palestinian children?

Ray Jay wrote:Ricky:

Turn the other cheek, and do kindness to those who torment you.

Been there, done that. Never again.

How are the Palestinians "turning the other cheek"

John 8:7 says those who are without sin cast the first stone. Are you saying the Palestinians are sinless? What is your point?

If you use the Bible as standard, I expect you to follow all of it. Otherwise try using logic and a spell checker.