Optics?

acts by the Israeli government that are liable to make the two-state solution an impossibility.

Examples of this are construction projects in the E1 area between Ma’aleh Adumim and Jerusalem, and in the Jerusalem neighborhoods of Givat Hamatos and Har Homa, both of which are over the Green Line. The European Union believes that construction in these places endangers the possibility of establishing a Palestinian state with territorial contiguity and could keep Jerusalem from being the capital of both states

Is this optics or substnatial? It's the change that will be required to avoid sanctions...

ray

reconciling Israeli security with Palestinian sovereignty appears to be too hard.

Well, there was no down side to attempting a reconciliation of this, until now... Just as there was no real down side to South Africa's apartheid system until sanctions and isolation were instigated by Thatcher and Mulroney...

Plus, its not the only issue. Beyond this security issue is that a certain portion of Israelis really want a Greater Israel. Period.

Yeah Ricky, I get it. You are trying to pick a fight with me because the Israelis are pursuing policies that you don't agree with. This was your launching pad for that fight.

Is this optics or substnatial? It's the change that will be required to avoid sanctions...

That's my point. It's substantial. No, the Europeans can do whatever they like. Israel is not returning to green line borders. They are not unannexing Jerusalem. Why doesn't Canada unannex Manitoba?

Ricky: Well, there was no down side to attempting a reconciliation of this, until now...

Really, no downside?

Plus, its not the only issue. Beyond this security issue is that a certain portion of Israelis really want a Greater Israel. Period.

I never said it was the only issue. Yes, there are some Israelis who want a greater Israel. I'm glad that you got that off your chest. And there are many Palestinians who want no Israel at all.

ray

They are not unannexing Jerusalem. Why doesn't Canada unannex Manitoba?

Flin Flon is no Jeruselum.

Ricky:

Well, there was no down side to attempting a reconciliation of this, until now.

..

ray

Really, no downside?

Outside of whatever the Palestinians could muster in terms of protest or violence ...no.
And, if you are correct, that Palestinian reaction is permanently baked into Israelis calculations and sustainable.
This, economic and political costs from the western world, is entirely new.

Ricky:

Flin Flon is no Jeruselum.

Yes, there is an emotional attachment to Jerusalem, and in particular el Aqsa Mosque and Temple Mount) that makes a challenging situation unsolvable.

Outside of whatever the Palestinians could muster in terms of protest or violence ...no.
And, if you are correct, that Palestinian reaction is permanently baked into Israelis calculations and sustainable.
This, economic and political costs from the western world, is entirely new.

I think the 6 or more Israelis killed by terrorism in the last week is hardening the Israelis. I don't think that political and economic costs are more important than those deaths, do you?. For many Israelis they are making a different calculation than you. It's not that the current situation is good. It's just that it is better than what they perceive as the alternative. You perceive Abbas and the Palestinians as potential peace partners. It seems that based on electoral results, most Israelis do not.

BTW, the Apartheid analogy may work in terms of galvanizing world opinion and the Palestinians, but it falls down in terms of what it means for the Israelis. The whites in South Africa gave up power, and although we all applaud the resulting democracy and Mr. Mandela's legacy, the reality for S. A. whites is not particularly encouraging. I can't imagine that the Israelis would choose to give up power and a net outmigration of Jews from Israel.

I think you picked the wrong to time to bring up this topic again,Ricky
http://m.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-30092720

Maybe the Europeans might want to reconsider the morality of intervening in this conflict...apartheid was a clear wrong and it was morally justifiable to try to end it...this situation is far more complex. In any case, Israel will not be moved by sanctions , I think (as RJ said). As far as I am concerned we can impose sanctions too--against countries that impose sanctions on Israel.

Here's an interesting perspective on Abbas: I don't agree with everything in this op ed, but it offers a good summary of an alternative view of Abbas.

http://observer.com/2014/11/israel-must ... -campuses/

We’ve long witnessed the “moderate” Mr. Abbas naming public squares after Palestinian terrorists whose hands drip with Jewish blood. He posthumously bestowed the “Star of Honor” on Abu Jihad, the mastermind of the 1978 Coastal Road attack, where 38 Israelis, including 13 children, were killed, calling him “the model of a true fighter and devoted leader.” He named a public square after Dalal Mughrabi, the Palestinian woman who led the attack, in 2011. Last August, Mr. Abbas gave a hero’s welcome to Palestinian murderers who were released by Israel as a goodwill gesture.

We’ve watched as Mr. Abbas has slowly become yet another Arab dictator who no longer holds elections. We’ve watched as Mr. Abbas has turned the Palestinian Authority into a kleptocracy, enriching his sons, Tarik and Yasser, as they’ve taken control of the cigarette, construction, and other lucrative trades.

Now comes the news that Mr. Abbas’ response to the recent shooting of an Israeli-American activist in Jerusalem by a Palestinian terrorist was to write to the murderer’s father, praising his son as a Palestinian hero.

There is your "moderate" Palestinian.

More optics? Perhaps this attack was caused by Jewish settlers somewhere?

http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/18/world/meast/jerusalem-violence/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Seriously, why the continued attacks? What is the Palestinian end game? Do they want a One State solution? Two State? Perhaps they want the solution that the Iranians want. Complete destruction of Israel?

http://dailycaller.com/2014/07/23/iran-supreme-leader-the-only-solution-for-crisis-is-israels-destruction/


He then emphasized, “As said by Imam Khomeini [the founder of the Islamic Republic of Iran] Israel must be destroyed…However, until that time with the help of God for this cruel and murderous regime to be destroyed, strong confrontation with steadfast armed resistance is the only solution against this destructive regime.”

bbauska wrote:Seriously, why the continued attacks? What is the Palestinian end game? Do they want a One State solution? Two State? Perhaps they want the solution that the Iranians want. Complete destruction of Israel?

http://dailycaller.com/2014/07/23/iran-supreme-leader-the-only-solution-for-crisis-is-israels-destruction/


He then emphasized, “As said by Imam Khomeini [the founder of the Islamic Republic of Iran] Israel must be destroyed…However, until that time with the help of God for this cruel and murderous regime to be destroyed, strong confrontation with steadfast armed resistance is the only solution against this destructive regime.”

Its an amazing speech, particularly during the negotiations on Iranian nuclear weapons. I can't imagine his motivations.

http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/11/18/breaking-multiple-casualties-in-jerusalem-synagogue-terror-attack-assailants-wielded-axes-guns-knives/

Look at the pictures embedded in the article.

Candy given in Gaza to celebrate the attack
Cartoon celebrating the attack

Hamas calling the attack "heroic"... Hardly.

Cowardice, more like it.

bbauska wrote:http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/11/18/breaking-multiple-casualties-in-jerusalem-synagogue-terror-attack-assailants-wielded-axes-guns-knives/

Look at the pictures embedded in the article.

Candy given in Gaza to celebrate the attack
Cartoon celebrating the attack

Hamas calling the attack "heroic"... Hardly.

Cowardice, more like it.

Yes, but if Israel retreated to the green line, there would be nothing but peace and love.

Do you believe that, or is that tongue in cheek?

bbauska wrote:Do you believe that, or is that tongue in cheek?

tongue in cheek

Abbas did condemn yesterday's attack, did he not?