07 Jan 2013, 3:49 pm
rickyp wrote:fate.Tom specifically cited "elementary schools." Your list is all over the map
Well, mass shootings are all over the map.
Or do they only become horrible events if they take place in elementary schools?
Thank you for bring such clarity to my sense that Redscape political discussions are a black hole.
The issue is gun control. Your post of a listing of school shootings going back many decades, before sem--automatic weapons were in wide distribution as a matter of fact, was a tour de force in absolute meaninglessness.
Is it new information that will affirm the need for banning semi-autos? No, not when it contains shootings done with revolvers, shootings done out of jealousy (non-mass shootings, also known as "murder"), and a variety of unrelated shootings. In other words, it was no argument at all.
Then you respond with something completely insipid. Okay. Whatever.
What GMTom actually said:
I don't think you will find many people suggest every single school (elementary especially) should have armed guards. This was a crazy insane situation that just doesn't happen. To even try and foresee such a crazy situation and try limit it is going overboard. This was a situation where a mentally ill person was determined to cause mass killings. The law worked, he was prohibited from owning a gun, he stole guns, he was locked out of the school, he broke in. He was going to pull this off and to try to now cover this bizarre situation like it's in any sort of way common is simply foolish. And what happens when some lunatic decides to blow up a preschool with a bomb? It sucks but Sh1t happens and this is one of those really sad times... not trying to diminish it, it's sad and terrible but so has been so many other crazy things.
danivon wrote:Actually, his post talked about 'every single school', and included elementary schools. It was not specific to them alone. He also mentioned pre-schools.
Yes, you're right. But again, that is tangential. He said it was "a crazy insane situation that just doesn't happen. To even try and foresee such a crazy situation and try limit it is going overboard."
That's the thrust of his argument.
Or even reading it and the previous ones properly?
Maybe. I'm so sorry I didn't read rickyp's non-argument more carefully. After all, it was made with such non-force and inelegance that I should have plumbed its shallows more carefully.
From rickyp's list of shootings, I'm only drawing from post 1991 to show the non-insights:
January 8, 1991, Richardson, Texas Jeremy Wade Delle, 15, killed himself with a .357 Magnum in front of his second-period English class. The incident inspired the Pearl Jam song "Jeremy".
That counts as a "school shooting."
Now, it's sad, but is it quite like the Sandy Hook shooting?
Was a semi-automatic employed?
Does this have anything to do with Sandy Hook? Is there any proposal on the books that would stop this?
Meanwhile, all of these occurred during the Assault Weapons Ban:
November 7, 1994: Wickliffe, Ohio (Wickliffe Middle School shooting) Keith Ledeger, 37, a former student at the school, shot and killed custodian Pete Christopher and wounded four other adults.
January 12, 1995: Seattle Washington A 15-year-old Garfield High School student left school during the day and returned with his grandfather's 9mm semiautomatic handgun. He wounded two students.[58]
October 12, 1995: Blackville, South Carolina (Blackville-Hilda High School shooting) Anthony Sincino, 16, killed one teacher and wounded another before committing suicide.
November 15, 1995: Lynnville, Tennessee (Richland High School shooting) James Rouse, 17, killed a student and teacher and seriously wounded another teacher with a .22-caliber rifle.
February 2, 1996: Moses Lake, Washington (Frontier Middle School shooting) Barry Loukaitis, 14, killed a teacher and two students and wounded another student when he opened fire on his algebra class.
August 15, 1996: San Diego, California (San Diego State University shooting) Frederick Martin Davidson, a 36-year-old graduate student killed three professors that he believed were involved in a conspiracy against him.
September 17, 1996: State College, Pennsylvania (Hetzel Union Building shooting) Jillian Robbins, 19, shot and killed one student and injured two outside Pennsylvania State University’s Hetzel Union Building.
February 19, 1997: Bethel, Alaska Bethel Regional High School student Evan Ramsey, 16, shot and killed the school’s principal and one student, and wounded two other students..
October 1, 1997: Pearl, Mississippi (Pearl High School shooting) Luke Woodham, 16, murdered his mother at home before killing his ex-girlfriend and another student and wounding seven others at Pearl High School. He and his friends were said to be outcasts who worshiped Satan.
November 27, 1997: West Palm Beach, Florida Conniston Middle School student Tronneal Magnum, 14, fatally shot Johnpierre Kamel, 14, outside school after an argument over a @#$!.[59]
December 1, 1997: West Paducah, Kentucky (Heath High School shooting) Three students were killed and five wounded by Michael Carneal, 14, as they participated in a prayer circle.
December 15, 1997: Stamps, Arkansas Joseph “Colt” Todd, 14, concealed in a wooded area on school grounds, shot and wounded two students as they were entering Stamps High School.[60]
March 24, 1998: Craighead County, Arkansas Mitchell Johnson, 13, and Andrew Golden, 11, killed four students and one teacher and wounded ten others as Westside Middle School emptied during a fire alarm intentionally set off by Golden.
April 24, 1998: Edinboro, Pennsylvania (Parker Middle School dance shooting) Andrew Wurst, 14, fatally shot teacher John Gillette, 48, and wounded two students and a teacher at an 8th grade graduation dance.
May 19, 1998: Fayetteville, Tennessee Jacob Davis, 18, shot Robert Creson, 18, in a dispute over a girl.[61]
May 21, 1998: Springfield, Oregon After killing his parents at home, Kip Kinkel,15, drove to Thurston High School where he shot and killed two students and wounded 25 others.
June 15, 1998: Richmond, Virginia A 14-year-old student of Armstrong High School wounded a teacher and a school volunteer.[62]
December 10, 1998: Detroit, Michigan Professor Andrzej Olbrot was killed by graduate student Wlodzimierz Dedecjus, 48.[63]
April 20, 1999: Columbine, Colorado (Columbine High School massacre) Eric Harris, 18, and Dylan Klebold, 17, killed 12 students and one teacher, and wounded 21 others before committing suicide at Columbine High School.
May 20, 1999: Conyers, Georgia (Heritage High School shooting) Six students injured by Thomas Solomon Jr., 15.
November 19, 1999: Deming, New Mexico A 13-year-old girl fatally shot at Deming Middle School by Victor Cordova Jr., 13. Cordova stated he had intended to commit suicide but was jostled by others and the gun moved.[64]
February 29, 2000: Flint, Michigan At Buell Elementary School, 6-year-old Dedrick Owens, the youngest-ever school shooter, shot and killed classmate Kayla Rolland.[65]
May 26, 2000: Lake Worth, Florida Lake Worth Middle School Florida teacher Barry Grunow was fatally shot by his student, 13-year-old Nathaniel Brazill, who had returned to school after being sent home at 1 p.m. by the assistant principal for throwing water balloons. Brazill returned to school on his bike with a 5 inch Raven and four bullets stolen from his grandfather the week before. Brazill was an honor student. Grunow was a popular teacher and Brazill's favorite.[65]
August 28, 2000: University of Arkansas shooting at Fayetteville, Arkansas At approximately 12:14 pm, Dr. John R. Locke, 67, Director of the Comparative Literature Program was shot and killed in his office by James E. Kelly, 36, a Comparative Literature PhD candidate who had recently been dismissed from the program for lack of progress towards his degree. Kelly shot Dr. Locke three times before taking his own life in Dr. Locke's office after it was cordoned off by campus police.[66][67][68]
September 26, 2000: Darrel Johnson, 13, offender in Louisiana school shooting with 1 student fatality.[65]
March 5, 2001: Charles Andrew William, age 15, offender in California school shooting at Santana High School, 15 wounded 2 of which died.[65]
March 30, 2001: Donald R. Burt Jr., age 18, offender in Indiana school shooting with 1 student fatality.[65]
September 24, 2003: John Jason McLaughlin, age 15, offender in Minnesota school shooting with 2 student fatalities.[65]
February 2, 2004: Unidentified offender in Washington, DC school shooting with 1 student fatality.[65]
May 7, 2004: Unidentified 17 year old offender in Maryland school shooting with 1 student fatality.[65]
FYI: that's more than half of 51 in a ten-year period. Ten years is less than half of the period covered by rickyp's "insightful" post.
I'm not really sure, but I don't believe rickyp's "argument" is very effective.
