Well there are Soccer Hooligans that riot. Perhaps that is the religion in the UK?

Nope. Not that it was a comparable situation in scope or reach (and it was a purely internal issue, so why British Christians would consider burning the Union Flag in protest, I don't know)

Mind you, how many mosques have been attacked in the US since the massacre at a Sikh temple? I accept that Islamic reaction in poor and poorly educated countried with a history of autocratic rule is somewhat more violent, but we in the West are not necessarily that tolerant of different religions or perceived slights against us.

I note that the German and British embassies in Khartoum have been attacked. I'm going to guess that the mobs are being misled as to what is actually going on. Mobs tend to be easily misled anyway, once whipped up.

bbauska wrote:Well there are Soccer Hooligans that riot. Perhaps that is the religion in the UK?

Cute jibe, but given the recent outcome of the review into Hillsborough, the timing is somewhat poor.

Praytell....

Are speaking about the Hillsborough incident in 1989 (23 years ago?)

Yes. It was revealed this week that the emergency services covered up evidence of their failings, that the police conspired to have lies printed in the press about fan behaviour and that those who have been fighting for the past 23 years for the memories of their loved ones and to get the truth accepted were right all along, despite having been portrayed as bitter and maudlin.

There has been a problem with football-related hooliganism in the UK. It is considerably less of a problem than it was a few decades ago, but alas is still present at times. Some people died as a result of it. However, far more people have died as a result of poor crowd management and dangerous stadium design/maintenance (including ham-fisted responses to hooliganism) in that period than did from the violence.

Last night I was talking to someone who was at Ibrox in 1971 (he was at the other end of the ground from where about 60 fans died.

I spoke with some friends here who are from London. They said my jibe, although meant in jest, was quite easily misinterpreted. I apologize.

The reference to Hillsborough and soccer hooliganism is obliquely relevant to the Cairo demonstrations. Apparently many of the demonstrators are from a football supporter group called, "The Invincibles" (I think thats the name.) They like to riot for sport.

There are 30 million people in Cairo. 3 million copts.
How many are demonstrating? One has to be careful not to over react to whats going on. It really is imbeciles provoking imbeciles..
Morsi can't let this run ourt of control or he'll give the military an excuse to roll back his authority.

rickyp wrote:
There are 30 million people in Cairo. 3 million copts.
How many are demonstrating? One has to be careful not to over react to whats going on. It really is imbeciles provoking imbeciles..
Morsi can't let this run ourt of control or he'll give the military an excuse to roll back his authority.

I agree that one should not over react, but one should also not be in denial about what is going on in the Nile as well as the rest of the Muslim world. There have been demonstrations in over a dozen countries. In addition to a murdered ambassador and several others, we have our President burned in effigy in Afghanistan and an American run school in Tunis being burned and looted. The US embassy in Tunis has been breached, burned and looted. US, German, and British embassies in Sudan have been attacked. The Germans and British are guilty of what, exactly as it relates to this video? In Lebanon protesters attacked and burned a KFC restaurant. In Iraq they are burning Israeli and US flags. (This has nothing to do with Israel.)

Okay, it's not everyone, but this is not about a few imbeciles. This is about a culture. I keep returning to that.

ray

In Lebanon protesters attacked and burned a KFC restaurant

This could have been PETA.
ray

In Iraq they are burning Israeli and US flags. (This has nothing to do with Israel.)

Its the Middle East. Its always about Israel.

Joking aside...

In the Washington Post today:


More than a dozen countries in the Muslim world rocked by protests linked to a controversial anti-Islam movie in recent days were relatively calm Saturday, but protests flared up far away from the region in Australia

There is a long relationship betwen the US and the Middle East. And the muslim world. You can't overtly support the dictators and despots that exploited people for decades and not expect some lingering resentments and bad feeling.
On the other hand, most of these countries popultations are also experiencing the right to (fairly) free expression for the first time... Do they not have the right to express themselves in demonstrations, or is that to be a right denied them...? Demonstrations are a cultural thing?

One has to seperate the two things, the demonstrations, and the armed attacks on the embassies.
The attacks seem to be acts of terror. At least in Libya. (I think in Yemen the Embassey was abandoned so it might actually be a crime of opportunity...Lets loot!!!)
The nascent Libyan government has made arrests, Morsi is clamping down in Egypt..
Now if only the Australians can get a handle on things...

This shall pass...

Nice sidebar. Demonstrating is fine. Peaceful demonstrations, that is. Does the burning of a KFC, many cars burned, RPGs fired, and people killed qualify as peaceful?

Are you saying a "crime of opportunity" is acceptable? I do not.

bbauska

Are you saying a "crime of opportunity" is acceptable? I do not

.
Well, maybe the buring of the KFC.....

But No. I'm appealing for a little perspective. But I don't think a few demonstrations turned violent means that the Muslim world is inherently violent or evil.
The next time there is a demonstration somewhere in the west that turns bad, will we be pondering the inherent violence in the Judeo Christian world? The next time the Canucks lose a Stanely Cup game or the Lakers a basketball game and the celebrations turn violent ?
There are a few narrow issues here: One is how embasseys are protected . It is the duty of the host nation to ensure the security of embasseys (or consulates) faced with demonstrations. The Libyans failed in this , although a dozen died in the rescue of the remaining consul staff... Subsequently they've arrested some of the terrorists responsible.
They are a new govenrment, trying to cope in a horrible situation. The horrible being the presence of uncontrolled armed militias throughout the country. Especially Ben Ghazi. (An arguement for gun laws here?)
The Egyptians seem to have the security issue under control now.. (Yemen and Somalia sren't really governed so much anymore.).

These are new democracies. People are expressing themselves. Sometimes it gets out of hand.
Actiivities like this went on outside US embasseys under every President... And will continue. There is always some risk in maintaining embasseys in foreign countries...
Big dogs get the attention so they become a focal point for anyone with a beef against US policy or in this case ... an elaborate insult created in the US. (The video) But it will pass.

Not all Muslims are bad, I never said they were. Hyperbole.

Are the riots after Toronto wins the World Series going to be Judeo-Christian based? No, they will not.

People's bad actions are just that. BAD. It does not matter that there was not security at the bank. Stealing is stealing. It does not matter if security is at the embassy or consulate. RPG fire/murder is wrong.

BTW, Who in Ben Ghazi?

You don't see Muslims rioting and looting when a group of Muslim extremists - er, criminals who hide behind the veil of Islam as some would say - blowing up a mosque, killing numerous clerics and citizens and destroying their holy books. (Isn't that blasphemy, we hear?) No world-wide demands for bringing those thugs to justice, no imams haranguing true believers to seek them out and kill them. Why not? As Danivan says, this is the mindset of ignorant mobs of people brought up seeing no difference between their lives, the government, and religion.(okay, not Danivon's exact words).

In their world, there is no difference. That may be the case, based on how "quickly" the governments acted to stop these mobs before they committed violence and murder. In one respect, a mob is a mob and once in action, loses all sense of decorum and is very difficult to stop, no matter what part of the world you are in. Too bad that the peaceful Muslims around the world cannot find it in them to do anything about it. Not even Yusuf "Cat Stevens" Islam, who agreed with the death fatwa against Salman Rushdie back in the 80s. "All on the peace train..."

One good thing about this is that it gives us a unique chance to see the MIddle Ages come alive, without having to sit through an entire semester of history or watch some phony Hollywood movie.

Ricky:

I'm appealing for a little perspective.

I just wonder whether you have so much perspecitve that you are missing what is right in front of your face.