But I will say that I'm honored that you esteem my presence in a tournament so high that my leaving it is considered to have been the destruction point of the tournament.

danivon wrote:

Guapo wrote:Steve, oh, Steve. Still bitter because I quit RG? Please. You benefited from it, and that was specifically part of the reason I left. The main reason, however, was because of the disgraceful management and subjective, biased rulings. As you can see from the recidivism rate, I wasn't alone.

Just because Steve benefitted from it doesn't make it right. I benefitted from Vince's non-play in round 2 and that didn't make me happy about it, because I know it could have happened to anyone.

I did not benefit, contra Jeff's assertion. I worked my butt off to put together a coalition and take the game.

Who knew "lazy (sic) faire" doesn't work in Diplomacy?

It also didn't work to my team's advantage, because my score for your game (Jeff) didn't count.

It also didn't work to my advantage because I had to GM the game at the end--the one you dumped because, bottom line, you were too immature to lose an argument. It was a close call, I'll grant you that, but there was no reason to quit.

I only used 'egregious' to describe what I think how you were treated was not. I think your abandonment of a running game as it's GM was simply selfish and inconsiderate. Mainly to the other players.

I am happy in life, dude. It's not what I 'require' of others that motivates me, it's how others feel. Although frankly I'm caring less and less about your feelings the whole time you try to act the victim here.

And yes, oddly some of our best players are also very experienced, and also put effort in to run games and tourneys. The guy who ran the ftf games at ManorCon every year had a very good tournament one year when I played. Not a whiff of conspiracy, it's just that he's a very good player.

Guapo wrote:Heck, I would have taken a simple acknowledgment that I was right and you were wrong in lieu. But you decided to go the other way, and act more hostile to my rightness. So, over the last 6 months (since Huntsman dropped out) I waited. I played nicely. But since it seems we're airing grudges, now, in this thread, I figured it was my turn.

Well, I am pretty sure I am the one who sent you the first email saying you won and how did you want me to pay so I would say I acknowledged such. But then hey you want to try and claim the moral high horse go right ahead. I am still going to say that it is more important for me to put food on my table and clothes on my kids.

Oh and by the way, I wasn't talking about you in my comment so go ahead and be an even bigger prick.

I volunteered to keep GMing. I didn't abandon that. Get your stories right. You act like this is a habit of mine. I've dropped out of some games here and there. It happens. I've had people quit on me. It happens. It's a GAME. Do you remember me holding a riot fest when Golbe abandoned his position on my team, and I WASN'T allowed to replace him? No. While the details are not fresh in my mind, the RG tournament was a joke as I saw it. Why would you want me to continue in spite?

I'm sure you are happy in life. I said that you'll be happier. We all can use a little more happiness in life, can't we?

Removing myself from that retarded situation increased my lot of happiness at that time.

I'm sorry it had such a drastic affect on your psyche. I really didn't think that was possible. But I do find it hilarious.

Russ, what's with the phallic obsession? And for the record, I am not partial to anal, so it might be more accurate to call me a @#$! vagina prick.

A sheepish private email is one thing. But given the way you've behaved toward me here since then, I find it deplorable. I gave you outs. You refused them. So why so hostile towards me?

Don't worry, I'm not traumatised. I just lost all respect for you then and you ain't exactly earning it back.

Guapo wrote: But given the way you've behaved toward me here since then, I find it deplorable. I gave you outs. You refused them. So why so hostile towards me?

I don't think I have been any more or less hostile towards you than I was before the resolution of our bet. The key to my tone of responding is that I usually respond in the tone I perceive being directed at me.

Now I acknowledge that sometimes I get vitrolic first, usually when I am in a bad mood. However, when I do, I tend to claim mea culpa and apologize. So, if I have responded hostilely to you and haven't apologized, it is because I didn't instigate the hostility.

Seriously Jeff, I like you. The next time you are home I would love to meet of the drinks we keep trying to work. But sometimes your writting style is beyond obnoxious, condescending and arrogant. You even recognize this when you say people react negatively to what you say and you don't know why. I used to be the same way. It took me a long time to understand if people are reacting negatively to the way you are saying things, the fault is not theirs.

Thanks. I'm sorry it had to come out this way, but I honestly thought that it might have been part of the haterade Steve, Owen, and who knows how many other people have towards me. I believe I have good reason, too. Bear with me. I'm going to rewind, but answer your next point in doing so.

With regard to my tone, I generally agree. But Redscape is the only place I deal with such ridiculous hostility. I fully admit to being obnoxious, condescending and arrogant at times. Right or wrong, it has always been a reaction on my part. The ridiculous mockery and ridicule that was dished out to Libertarians in 2006-2007 is what started it. People mocked the idea that the US is an empire. Are you kidding me? There was a cabal of boobs that hated any dissent from the mainline arguments (bush sucks/bush is great, but we all agree--kill terrorists and denounce Libertarians).

I remember specifically thinking that Vince was too nice. It looked to me like he was being bullied because of it. So in a sense, I sort of made a decision to be the @#$!. It didn't guide my overall participation in the site, but in the forums. The same bullying I saw dished out to Vince and anyone else who dare identify with Libertarianism, I've since seen put out on RickyP. While I thought Vince was being victimized for being too nice, Ricky is just playing with an insufficient deck, and that's just rude.

But then it started leaking into the games. By 2008, I learned that I could not play with anyone from the political forums, simply because they didn't like me and my politics. One GM (slappy) lied about orders in a game I was winning, which had a horrendous outcome for me. I find that to be childish and silly. Given that, tied to the bullying nature of those creeps, it only fortified my resolve.

But then I saw some humanity, and I even left the forums for a bit. Culminating with RG, I thought that maybe it would be a more serious game than a few people dominating by cabal. No dice. Same bullshit, different day.

And they wonder why so few new people join. Newcomers are hazed like they walked into a frat house. I've brought nearly 20 people to join Redscape. Nearly all of them, after 1 game or 1 foray into the forums, have said that this site is bogus. It's a shame. It's a good medium for diplomacy, but a cabal of parochial fools have made it into a club, with unwritten rules, and an absurd hierarchy.

So I don't really care what the cabal think of me. In fact, the less they like me, the better I feel about it. Parochialism always loses. Either this site will die, or a new crop will have to come in to liven it up. That's just how things work.

I suspect the former to happen, instead of the latter.

So, then, the obvious question is, why don't I quit? Well, because I still think that there is hope. It is still a good medium, regardless of how @#$! up it is right now. And yes, it's @#$!. How many games do we have going?

I remember someone saying that the RG tourney is why the forum games disappeared. That shouldn't be happening. New people should be joining, starting Newbie games, and aspiring to the next RG/PG or whatever. But the gaming structure has been completely turned into a small-minded reflection of the political forums.

Btw, I hope you find a job. I know it can't be a fun situation, with a family to support. I honestly did not believe you, and thought you were just throwing me a line.

It's called 'empathy'/

Yes, I know what empathy is. It's when you realize that different people might have different values, and might want to live their lives in a manner different from how you might like them to. Empathy is not forcing your way on everyone because you think your way is best.

Wow, you are so noble compare to us. Shame you can't even be bothered to email people in a Play By E-mail game, huh? Then we might not get the idea you were some kind of superior jerk.

I don't think it's particularly noble to believe that we shouldn't hurt peaceful people (although it is pretty despicable to believe otherwise I suppose)

Don't know why you keep beating this diplomacy game drum though...

Vince: You don't have empathy for people who the wars you support kill, or for the people who want to live their lives differently because you support throwing them in cages

Dan: Yeah? Well...you don't have empathy for...uh...me! Because you didn't email me in that last dip game we played!

Someone with empathy might realize that there may have been a reason I didn't email anyone in one single game of diplomacy I've played in 10 years here on Resdacpe other than "Vince is a big jerkface". You can believe that if you'd like. I'm sorry you didn't like my style of play...maybe I should be thrown in prison for disobeying the "social contract"? But I've hosted plenty of games here on Redscape, including 3 games of NWO. That is a LOT of time I've contributed to this site...GMing a game of regular dip takes about 20 minutes/week, tops. I've also donated money to the site almost every year I've been here. Hard to believe a libertarian would actually voluntarily contribute to something, isn't it?

Yes, the tone has certainly taken a turn for the worse around here the last couple years(main reason I don't post much anymore.) Some people here don't seem to be able to have a civil conversation with anyone. Half the posts here have a snarky undercurrent, if not outright hostility. I try very hard to write politely, and I don't really take it personally when people are rude to me (why spend mental energy getting angry?) but I'm positive that this energy is driving people away.

Anyway, I espouse my way of thinking on several other forums, and nowhere do I see the kind of hostility and name-calling I see here (like in Dan's quote above). Which is why I post on those other boards instead.

I don't know what the solution is. More stringent moderation? Maybe, but then we'd probably see the most prolific posters banned. Maybe I need to block the people who are being rude to me? Ok, then I wouldn't be talking to too many people. Maybe this forum is in it's death throes.

(Edited to retract names)

^^FTW

You can find a number of Libertarian societies in existence in Africa. They have weak central governents (check), almost no taxes (check), and as long as you have a lot of guns you can defend your property and preserve your liberty. A libertarian wakes up in a rich western country and just sees the negatives. Take a look at pre-state societies through history--very high homicide rates, peasants victimized by the local lord (or whatever local miliatary power there is), and a small elite living off a peasantry living barely above starvation. I guess if you think you would be in the top 5% then a weak central government might work for you. You have 5,000 years of history to choose from--choose the libertarian soceity that works for more than just the few.

Maybe Libertarians aren't treated well on this site, but perhaps it is because they typically don't provide arguments to support Libertarianism. Instead of belitting Republicans and Democrats as just being essentially the same, perhaps closely reasonsed arguments as to why Libertarianism would be better might get a better response

We did the reasoned arguments for libertarianism. I personally found them quite interesting, but they inevitably spiralled out of control and came to dominate the forum, which led to resentment and bitchiness.