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- rickyp
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10 Mar 2015, 6:06 am
well, I'm ashamed I cut my quote short before this..
If the deal now being negotiated fails, the most likely scenario is a repetition of the past. Iran will expand its nuclear program. If the other major powers believed that Iran’s offer was serious but U.S. and Israeli intransigence torpedoed it
,
Israel's political maneuvering in Washington was largely responsible for Bushe's turn around. . Mostly through AIPAC. I'm surprised you wouldn't accept this as a given... However if more is required...
From
The United States and Iran: Sanctions, Wars and the Policy of Dual Containment
By Sasan Fayazmanesh
You'll find on page 166 (Google Books won't let one cut and paste) the history of the AIPAC Conference and the constant lobbying on this issue. (I don't know if the link below works but go to google books and you'll find the references...
https://books.google.ca/books?id=SMiTAg ... ns&f=false
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- Ray Jay
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10 Mar 2015, 6:51 am
rickyp wrote:well, I'm ashamed I cut my quote short before this..
If the deal now being negotiated fails, the most likely scenario is a repetition of the past. Iran will expand its nuclear program. If the other major powers believed that Iran’s offer was serious but U.S. and Israeli intransigence torpedoed it
,
Israel's political maneuvering in Washington was largely responsible for Bushe's turn around. . Mostly through AIPAC. I'm surprised you wouldn't accept this as a given... However if more is required...
From
The United States and Iran: Sanctions, Wars and the Policy of Dual Containment
By Sasan Fayazmanesh
You'll find on page 166 (Google Books won't let one cut and paste) the history of the AIPAC Conference and the constant lobbying on this issue. (I don't know if the link below works but go to google books and you'll find the references...
https://books.google.ca/books?id=SMiTAg ... ns&f=false
No, "I wouldn't accept it as a given" when you've Googled for a source and all you could find was page 186 of a book. If that's all you can find then it is not widely known. So, cut the crap posturing. Furthermore, you got the dates wrong. Your original quote was 2007, but you are now talking about 2005. Third, you are quoting from a controversial source. He is certainly not mainstream. Also, that's not proof; that's a fringe opinion. There's a difference.
If someone asked me for a source for misinformation, I wouldn't pretend that I provided one the first time. And then I wouldn't provide an obscure source and pretend that the other person was an idiot for not knowing something when I obviously got the dates wrong, and it was not a widely agreed upon point. Nor have you offered any proof at all. You are despicable.
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- freeman3
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10 Mar 2015, 9:46 am
First, the Netanyahu speech. Now Republicans writing to Iran directly and saying any agreement could be revoked by the next president.
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/6836146The Daily News has called the 47 Republicans who signed the letter traitors. It may violate the Logan Act which forbids unauthorized citizens from negotiating with foreign governments.
http://www.newsmax.com/t/newsmax/article/629267In any case, Republicans are favoring a foreign government (Israel) over the interests of our own government and that is wrong, even if it is not illegal.
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- Ray Jay
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10 Mar 2015, 9:59 am
freeman3 wrote:First, the Netanyahu speech. Now Republicans writing to Iran directly and saying any agreement could be revoked by the next president.
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/6836146The Daily News has called the 47 Republicans who signed the letter traitors. It may violate the Logan Act which forbids unauthorized citizens from negotiating with foreign governments.
http://www.newsmax.com/t/newsmax/article/629267In any case, Republicans are favoring a foreign government (Israel) over the interests of our own government and that is wrong, even if it is not illegal.
So we are going to blame this on Israel too? I agree that the Senate Republicans acted incorrectly in writing this open letter. Inviting a head of government to provide a perspective to a joint session of your branch of government is ok. Writing to the other side's leader to undercut the President is not ok.
But can we acknowledge that US Senators have agency. They decided to do it. Just like Bush / Cheney / Rumsfeld had agency in 2003 and 2005. The notion that they did this for Israel and not their own perception of their own political and national interests is offending.
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- freeman3
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10 Mar 2015, 11:10 am
I don't blame Israel for the letter at all--that is all on 47 Republicans. You already know that I don't think Netanyahu should have made that speech to Congress.
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- rickyp
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10 Mar 2015, 12:35 pm
ray
No, "I wouldn't accept it as a given"
really? You don't think AIPAC has outside influence within Congress?
And you don't think Israel was lobbying hard against any traty accommodation of Iranian nuclear ambition throughout the 90s and 00's?
Are you serious? It's only just now with Netanyahu that this activity occurs?
freeman3
The Daily News has called the 47 Republicans who signed the letter traitors
I think its sedition they are actually guilty of ...
Not surprisingly the Iranian Foreign Minister had to correct the letter writes understanding of the US COnstituion and International law...
Zarif expressed astonishment that some members of US Congress find it appropriate to write to leaders of another country against their own President and administration. He pointed out that from reading the open letter, it seems that the authors not only do not understand international law, but are not fully cognizant of the nuances of their own Constitution when it comes to presidential powers in the conduct of foreign policy.
The Iranian Foreign Minister added that "change of administration does not in any way relieve the next administration from international obligations undertaken by its predecessor in a possible agreement about Iran's peaceful nuclear program." He continued "I wish to enlighten the authors that if the next administration revokes any agreement with the stroke of a pen, as they boast, it will have simply committed a blatant violation of international law.
He emphasized that if the current negotiation with P5+1 result in a Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action, it will not be a bilateral agreement between Iran and the US, but rather one that will be concluded with the participation of five other countries, including all permanent members of the Security Council, and will also be endorsed by a Security Council resolution.
Zarif expressed the hope that his comments "may enrich the knowledge of the authors to recognize that according to international law, Congress may not modify the terms of the agreement at any time as they claim, and if Congress adopts any measure to impede its implementation, it will have committed a material breach of US obligations.
The Foreign Minister also informed the authors that majority of US international agreements in recent decades are in fact what the signatories describe as "mere executive agreements" and not treaties ratified by the Senate
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http://en.mfa.ir/index.aspx?siteid=3&fk ... iew=330948
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- Ray Jay
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10 Mar 2015, 12:42 pm
Ricky:
ray
No, "I wouldn't accept it as a given"
really? You don't think AIPAC has outside influence within Congress?
And you don't think Israel was lobbying hard against any traty accommodation of Iranian nuclear ambition throughout the 90s and 00's?
Are you serious? It's only just now with Netanyahu that this activity occurs?
You are truncating quotes again. It is dishonest.
Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld made their own decisions. Israel has every right to try to influence US policy, just like every other country tries. Why you have a particular problem with that is something you'll have to figure out.
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- danivon
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10 Mar 2015, 2:44 pm
Ray Jay wrote:So we are going to blame this on Israel too? I agree that the Senate Republicans acted incorrectly in writing this open letter. Inviting a head of government to provide a perspective to a joint session of your branch of government is ok. Writing to the other side's leader to undercut the President is not ok.
I did see this today suggesting that no Senator or Congressman, let alone 47 of them would act without at least consulting AIPAC:
http://mjrosenberg.net/2015/03/09/how-w ... r-to-iran/But can we acknowledge that US Senators have agency. They decided to do it. Just like Bush / Cheney / Rumsfeld had agency in 2003 and 2005. The notion that they did this for Israel and not their own perception of their own political and national interests is offending.
Bush/Cheney were Executive, while the Senators are Legislature. directly interfering in negotiations is at the very least pushing the envelope of the Logan Act (far more so than visiting a leader and talking to them - this was actually telling Iran not to bother negotiating as the USA could not be trusted to respect a deal)
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- Sassenach
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10 Mar 2015, 2:47 pm
I doubt the Iranians needed to be told about the American electoral cycle. This is just grandstanding for domestic consumption.
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- danivon
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10 Mar 2015, 3:10 pm
Sassenach wrote:I doubt the Iranians needed to be told about the American electoral cycle. This is just grandstanding for domestic consumption.
I largely agree, although I suspect that this also has repercussions in Iran. How does it help those who want moderation and better relations with the West, against the hardline faction, for this to be effectively shouted from the rooftops?
And no, I don't believe that these guys needed Israel or AIPAC to come up with the idea, rather that they think there is a shared interest here. There is, of course, a shared interest between Israel and the USA, but I think this course is pretty unwise for both.
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- Ray Jay
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10 Mar 2015, 5:44 pm
I think the letter is also poor as a negotiating ploy because it is a sign of weakness. To override Obama, they need 67 Senators to require the maintenance of sanctions. The last vote count I heard was 64, and presumably everyone has made up their mind. The letter suggests that the Senators will not prevail so they threw a hail Mary pass. They would have been better off presenting their position to the American public.
Let's be clear: these Senators signed their own damn letter (and many Republicans who are against the potential agreement chose not to sign the letter). They did it for their own political reasons or because they viewed it to be in the US national interest. Israel and AIPAC didn't make them do it.
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- rickyp
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11 Mar 2015, 6:32 am
rayjay
Let's be clear: these Senators signed their own damn letter (and many Republicans who are against the potential agreement chose not to sign the letter). They did it for their own political reasons or because they viewed it to be in the US national interest. Israel and AIPAC didn't make them do
Tom Cotton was bought and paid for...
Bill Kristol’s Emergency Committee for Israel gave Tom Cotton nearly $1 million in his race for the Senate just five months ago, Eli Clifton reported. “Cotton received $960,250 in supportive campaign advertising in the last month.”
Cotton also got $165,000 from Elliott Management Paul Singer’s hedge fund. Singer is the billionaire who is trying to stop Obama’s Iran talks (Clifton’s reporting again). He funds the Israel Project too– Josh Block’s efforts.
http://mondoweiss.net/2015/03/israel-fi ... republicanI don't blame Israel or AIPAC for taking advantage of a political system that allows campaign money such outsize importance.
However, money distorts democracy.
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- Ray Jay
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11 Mar 2015, 8:03 am
Newsflash: there are plenty of Americans who have tons of money, not just Jews.
Newsflash 2: special interests have been writing U.S. legislation and regulations for decades. It ain't just AIPAC.
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- freeman3
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11 Mar 2015, 8:35 am
And apparently it was Tom Cotton who organized the signing of the letter....
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... -idea.htmlLook, I understand that Israel has a lot at stake here. And we all knew that AIPAC was a strong lobby before today and there is nothing wrong with that. But coming to Congress and attacking our president's policy was a mistake. I wonder how the Knesset would react if a foreign leader came before it and attacked Israel with regard to its policies. Oh, actually we know because there was a huge outcry when an EU leader asked a question about Palestinian access to water.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/harsh-reac ... eu-leader/By the way, this is a bit old but it does not appear that some lobbyists for Israel were too happy about what Netanyahu did.
http://forward.com/articles/214591/why- ... feud-over/?
Last edited by
freeman3 on 11 Mar 2015, 10:01 am, edited 2 times in total.
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- rickyp
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11 Mar 2015, 8:48 am
ray jay
Newsflash 2: special interests have been writing U.S. legislation and regulations for decades. It ain't just AIPAC
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Yes.So? That makes it right?
In this specific case, Cotton and his ilk are beholden to an organization that exclusively promotes policies that benefit a foreign government. That's some special interest.
And makes one wonder about his patriotism.
http://www.businessinsider.com/israeli- ... els-2014-5