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Post 10 Feb 2012, 9:02 am

By the way, I have seen a similar thing happen. In the Labour Party over here, if we have a sitting MP and no boundary changes, we can decide by vote whether or not to have a re-selection (otherwise, there's a vacancy and we have to go through a selection process).

This is done by each ward party (and any affiliated union branches) meeting to take a vote. A few years ago, my home constituency did this. The results of two wards (who for convenience meet at the same time and place but did vote secretly and seperately) were leaked. They went for re-selection - ie: not keeping the current MP in place. As a result, it went around the national left wing circles that she was bound to lose.

Of course, I knew those two wards - my dad was a member of one - and I also knew the rest of them. The results elsewhere were very different. Indeed, the leak served to galvanise those who supported the MP and she easily won automatic reselection with only (could you guess?) two ward and one union branch opposing. Guess who's dad was in that branch?

Personally I would have preferred the result had been different. But I knew that it would not be and tried to calm down the more exciteable lefties (some outside the Party) from their dreams of wholesale deselections of Blairites, and they reacted like you, Guapo.

Paul will do well in the States where he came second. But there will be many where he won't even do that. Zeal and Organisation may help, but at the same time it may just provoke the old guard into slapping down the insurgency.
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Post 10 Feb 2012, 10:48 am

Archduke Russell John wrote:
Guapo wrote: Watch what happens in Nevada and other states that have unpledged delegates selected over a process.

That's how Obama won, for Pete's sake. The DNC wasn't as divided as the GOP is, and there were only 2 candidates.


The problem with these two comments though is the number of unpledged delegates in the GOP is only about 5% whereas in the Democratic Party it is more like 20%. I don't know of those 5% of unpledged delegates can really have that much of an impact.


Where are you getting that from? This link shows that unpledged delegates total about 20% in the GOP.

It's not just about pledged and unpledged. It's also about proportional allotment. Moreover, the pledged/unpledged delegate system isn't very policeable. For example, Colorado has all its delegates listed as pledged, which would preclude what happened with the three precincts in the article and image.

That is the point. The system is mostly a guideline, and the Ron Paul activists know how to work it.
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Post 10 Feb 2012, 1:00 pm

This is from the Wikipedia page on the Republican Presidential Primaries
The total base number of delegates allocated to each of the 50 U.S. states is 10 at-large delegates, plus 3 delegates per congressional district. In addition, fixed numbers of at-large delegates are allocated to Washington, D.C., Puerto Rico, American Samoa, Guam, the U.S. Virgin Islands, and Northern Mariana Islands under the party's delegate selection rules. States are awarded bonus delegates based on the following factors:

Bonus delegates to each state that cast a majority of their Electoral College votes for the GOP candidate in the 2008 presidential election
One bonus delegate for each GOP senator
One bonus delegate to each state that has a GOP majority in their delegation to the House of Representatives
One bonus delegate for each state that has a GOP governor
Bonus delegates for majorities in one or all of the chambers in their state legislature.
The three Republican National Committee members from each state and territory are delegates unless the state was penalized for violating the RNC's scheduling rules (see below). The individual states decide whether these RNC members are bound or unbound. 39 states and territories have chosen to make them unbound, resulting in 117 unbound superdelegates.


There is a better site but I can't remember where it is so this will have to do for now. However, that means only 117 of 2,000+ are unpledged. And pledged/unpledged is very enforceable which leads me to believe the article is either blatantely incorrect or a total miunderstanding of the situation.
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Post 10 Feb 2012, 4:27 pm

Russ, 117 is the number of Super delegates that are unpledged/unbound. Superdelegates are only a small fraction of the whole.

Ok, let's break this down.

I am linking a few things for anyone who wants to check.
1. The Republican Party Rules, adopted at the last convention
2. A pdf which purports to be from the GOP outlining the delegate selection process of each state, as well as one from the Green Pages (to which Wikipedia actually annotates).
3. An article from Poitico explaining why this year's rules are different.
4. Another article from Politico with a memo from the GOP on Florida and other "rebellious" states.
and, finally
5. A memo from the GOP explaining the change to Rule 15b referenced above.

According to the RNC Rules adopted at the 2008 convention, all states with primaries and caucuses prior to April 1 are to be proportionally allocated. The rule change to 15b also changed the prescribed dates, and set up penalties for states that didn't move. The 2008 rules were adopted to avoid another McCain like nomination. Multiple pluralities in early states, tied with too many WTAs lead to a terrible nominee.

As far as I know, the only states that are going to remain WTA prior to April 1 are Florida and Arizona--both of which have been penalized delegates. That's a big chunk of proportional delegates.

Another point to consider is how the delegates are chosen. This varies from state to state. It's not just a matter of bound and unbound. Some are elected by CD caucus, and some are state convention elections. CD Caucuses (like Colorado) in unbound states (like Colorado--the Green Pages info is wrong there) can ultimately have any result. It's about who is active most. That's the point of the rules.

Considering that Colorado and Florida are the states Ron Paul polled worst in, it's important to understand the impact. Florida doesn't matter. Mitt gets all 50. But in Colorado, he can get as many delegates as he wants. He's already trending way more than his proportional delegation will allow.

The memo also indicates that the RNC will not interfere with state delegates to the convention any more than has been noted and already penalized. That said, the binding status of delegates is not enforceable by the RNC. Ron's supporters can become delegates far beyond his numbers in the primaries.
Last edited by Guapo on 13 Feb 2012, 10:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post 12 Feb 2012, 12:29 pm

All I can say Jeff is that you can continue to dream about Ron Paul getting more delegates/the nomination but that is all it is...a dream. The minute it looks like he will effect the nomination, the Party will take control and make sure he doesn't.
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Post 14 Feb 2012, 6:51 am

The republican nominating process looks like a march to slaughter these days. Head to head polls on the three front runners show Obama opening up a preference gap of from 6 point to as much as 18 points....
If Santorum continues to hold his current support he'll win Michigan and that just might be enough to derail Mitt completely. Santorum would be a throw back candidate, representing only social conservatives and a huge gift to Obama.Even Rasmussen has Obama ahead 8 points on him, and thats before the campaign starts..
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/
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Post 14 Feb 2012, 7:52 am

Why, Russ, I never had you pegged as a conspiracy theorist!
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Post 14 Feb 2012, 8:18 am

Guapo wrote:Why, Russ, I never had you pegged as a conspiracy theorist!


Well Jeff, I don't really see it as a conspiracy so much as the Party get's what the party wants. The irony of the way we run our primaries now is that it was started this way back in the 70's as a way to weaken the party establishment and strengthen the grass roots of both parties. Yet, the establishment candidate always seems to be the one who wins, especially in the Republican Party.

I would say that after March 6th if it looks like the establishment candidate isn't going to get enough votes to win on the first round of the convention, you can bet your ass all the stops will be pulled out to make sure Romney gets the votes needed.
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Post 14 Feb 2012, 9:46 am

I'm not discounting that possibility. The news in Maine is getting interesting. What if two states that were called for Romney (in the straw poll) go to someone else? In Iowa's case, Santorum; in Maine's case, Paul. There's no guarantee that he will win in Washington county, but his campaign is indicating that he would.

That said, I do need to note two things:

1. The rules have been changed again,

2. Reagan was not an establishment candidate.

I guess we'll see what happens.
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Post 14 Feb 2012, 11:59 am

I would guess that if states that were called for one candidate on the basis of estimated popular vote went to another, there'd be a lot of questions about the legitimacy of the results, the democratic credentials of the party, and whether the 'winner' was entitled to all those delegates.

Some people don't like entryism, minority movements trying to usurp the majority.
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Post 14 Feb 2012, 8:29 pm

Guapo wrote:2. Reagan was not an establishment candidate.

Reagan was most definitely the establishment candidate in 1980.
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Post 14 Feb 2012, 10:46 pm

danivon wrote:I would guess that if states that were called for one candidate on the basis of estimated popular vote went to another, there'd be a lot of questions about the legitimacy of the results, the democratic credentials of the party, and whether the 'winner' was entitled to all those delegates.

Some people don't like entryism, minority movements trying to usurp the majority.



A caucus is not a primary. Most caucuses have several stages. Because Santorum's "supporters" don't want to stick around for the second, third, and fourth stages, he loses out. It's not "undemocratic" it's not "entryism" and it's not any other made-up word you can think of. It's the way those state parties have set up their systems.

What's hilarious to me is that you are talking about beauty contests that already have a minimal amount of participation to begin with. So the straw vote is just as "undemocratic" as the later rounds. It's like anything. If you don't vote, your choice isn't counted. If you don't stick around for the later rounds, oh well.
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Post 15 Feb 2012, 4:41 am

What I'm talking about is the perception, of outsiders and of supporters of other candidates. The concern should be whether trying to hack the caucuses might actually be counter-productive. The more people who hear that Paulistas are trying to own the later stages, the more the establishment will be able to encourage people to turn up.

And if they don't, and Paul 'wins' with the support of a small number of activists in some States, do you really think people won't use these arguments at the DNC to marginalise his delegations? It could force the Romney-backing establishment/moderates to do a deal with the social conservatives. They will be looking at popular support and November, not who played the system to embiggen their tactical support.

Oh, and it may also affect results in other states, if people think Paul and his groupies are trying to game the system.

Besides, I'm still sceptical of the actual level of support for Paul in these endeavours.


(undemocratic and entryism are no more 'made up' than any other words, by the way - all words are 'made up' but neither of these were constructed yesterday - and even if they were, you know exactly what they mean and how people outside the Paulista groupthink might well associate the ideas they convey to what is going on. Unless, of course you have succumbed to the groupthink - and yes, groupthink was 'made up' about 65 years ago)
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Post 15 Feb 2012, 6:34 am

I am with you on language liberalism. The problem arises when it is considered gootenglapher. It makes things a little yugulobbe and that doesn't help the haklajar.
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Post 15 Feb 2012, 8:59 am

Even as a political junkie it's not easy to know what's going on in your own state. Kind of interesting that my own State at the last moment has become caucus only.
Washington state's Republicans actually could play a high-profile role in the race for their party's presidential nomination. Why is this news? Well, we aren't accustomed to this.

Washington traditionally hasn't held much sway in presidential primary politics. For decades, the state's political parties have chosen their national convention delegates through the exclusionary, low-turnout caucus process, one that favors motivated, frequently doctrinaire activists over the sort of engaged citizens who turn out for primary elections.

This resulted in state delegate counts that didn't necessarily reflect the leanings or interests of the electorate. Our state said enough after 1988, when evangelist Pat Robertson won the Republican caucus over George H.W. Bush and Bob Dole, and Jesse Jackson gained 39 percent of the Democratic vote against Michael Dukakis.

A citizen initiative instituted the presidential primary in 1989, but the parties only grudgingly went along. In 2008, for example, Democrats used the primary merely as a beauty contest; they picked their delegates through caucuses. Republicans did let the primary decide half their delegates but stuck with caucuses for the other half.

Neither party complained in December when Republican Secretary of State Sam Reed, long a primary advocate, joined Democratic Gov. Chris Gregoire in asking the Legislature to suspend this year's primary. The move saved a cash-strapped state $10 million. Republicans scheduled their caucuses for March 3, a Saturday, and Democrats on April 15, a Sunday.

As the Republican presidential candidates made the rounds of the usual early states -- Iowa, New Hampshire and South Carolina, especially -- conventional wisdom dictated that Washington would have little impact. Most observers thought Mitt Romney would have gained the upper hand by now, or that Washington's stature would be dwarfed by the Super Tuesday vote three days later, when 11 states hold primaries or caucuses.

Instead, Republicans have engaged in a frontrunner-of-the-week free-for-all, and a Washington victory could inject a jolt of momentum heading into Super Tuesday. Also, with some prognosticators believing the nomination fight could go all the way to the national convention this summer, each delegate is a prize. Washington's 43 delegates are proving mighty enticing; that total almost equals that of megastate Florida, whose count was cut in half by national party officials after the state moved up its primary date to January against party wishes.

Each of the remaining candidates appeals to at least a sliver of this state's Republican electorate. The state has proven friendly to Republicans with moderate records like Romney; Rick Santorum attracts religious activists who play a strong role in the GOP organization; Newt Gingrich has the support of tea partiers and some of the state's prominent religious figures; Ron Paul's libertarian message will play well in a populist state and among college students.

The outcome on the morning of March 3 will hinge on whose supporters get to the neighborhood caucuses; there will be 10 or so sites in Yakima County, and where people meet depends on the precinct in which they reside. With no party registration in this state, a caucus-goer needs only to be a registered voter and willing to sign a form pledging fealty to the party and agreeing not to participate in any other party's caucuses this year.

After checking in, those attending can cast a ballot in a straw poll, but with that the process is just beginning. The state's caucus-goers then will elect delegates to the county conventions later in March and in April, depending on the county, then the state convention on May 30-June 2. And while party officials will announce the results of the straw poll on March 3, they won't determine the final delegate count until the state convention.

If the nomination remains in doubt come June, Washington's caucus outcome, normally a sideshow, could be squinting into the glare of the national spotlight.