Brad,

According to Oslo II water is supposed to be provided at cost. Also, Mekarot is paid by the Israeli government out of port taxes colleced by Israel on behalf of the PA. So the image of Palestinians paying Mekarot inflated prices because they are desparate for water is far-fetched. Ricky posted a story where Palestinians are paying settlers in one location high prices for waters but that is not Mekarot. And Mekrarot provides 50 million cubic meters of water per year. The individual Palesitnian, as far as I know, gets his water for free (unless he paying the PA or some municipality and i have not heard that--in any case Israel is not making big bucks off of water from the Palestinians)

freeman3 wrote:Brad,

According to Oslo II water is supposed to be provided at cost. Also, Mekarot is paid by the Israeli government out of port taxes colleced by Israel on behalf of the PA. So the image of Palestinians paying Mekarot inflated prices because they are desparate for water is far-fetched. Ricky posted a story where Palestinians are paying settlers in one location high prices for waters but that is not Mekarot. And Mekrarot provides 50 million cubic meters of water per year. The individual Palesitnian, as far as I know, gets his water for free (unless he paying the PA or some municipality and i have not heard that--in any case Israel is not making big bucks off of water from the Palestinians)

So why would he post lies?

Freeman:

The individual Palesitnian, as far as I know, gets his water for free (unless he paying the PA or some municipality and i have not heard that--in any case Israel is not making big bucks off of water from the Palestinians)

I wonder whether part of the problem here is that the system is devoid of market incentives. It doesn't seem like individual Palestinians pay for water, and it doesn't seem like Mekarot makes a profit on the water it sells to Palestinians. The last financials that they post on their website are from 2008 where they show a small profit. I guess they do profit on water that they sell to Israelis. Do any of us have deep knowledge on what is really going on here?

freeman

So the image of Palestinians paying Mekarot inflated prices because they are desparate for water is far-fetched.

really?

In areas where piped water is not available, water is purchased from water tankers for prices five to six times higher than for piped water.

Karen Assaf is the source. Quoted from Wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_supp ... al_aspects

Water having to be tankered in is because the IDF doesn't approve proposals from the Palestinians Water Authority projects to build infrastructure .
The issue of cost, only relates to the tankered water.
However the issue of accessibilty is the major issue. What good is being charged the same for water as Settkers but only having intermittent access to water while th Settlers irrigate the dessert?

here's another first hand account... American in this case.

Wherever we went in the West Bank we encountered this stark inequality in water distribution. For instance, while the fortress-like Israeli settlements surrounding Bethlehem have swimming pools and irrigated landscaping and lawns, Bethlehem can go for 10-15 days without flowing water, as residents are forced to pay for ‘empty pipes.’ The pipes in Bethlehem’s Aida refugee camp have been empty for more than two months at a time, leaving entirely depleted the rooftop tanks where potable water is stored.

The water shortages that afflict West Bank cities and towns are even more crippling in villages and rural areas. There, Palestinian agriculture has been dealt a deadly blow by Israel’s control since 1967 of the occupied territory’s water sources, including the underground aquifers and the waters of the Jordan River. Since 1967, half of the wells that sustained Palestinian communities have been destroyed, new wells are forbidden and settlers and soldiers routinely vandalize cisterns erected to collect rainwater.

- See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2013/12/israels-w ... 24fVL.dpuf


bbauska

So why would he post lies?

There's a source for everything bbauska
I listed a bunch.
If freeman seemingly won't accept the sources of the information and will only accept Israel official information.
And why would the IDF lie?

Well perhaps you can post a link to the difference in price of water provided to a Palestinian and water provided to a Jew.

I agree--it's very hard to get an accurate picture. I am counting on Owen and Ricky to correct any errors that I have made! Gvirtzman says 200 cubic centers supplied, I think the Wikipedia article supports 167 cubic meters, and Owens indicated from what he is read it is 150. Oslo II put Palestinian consumption at 118 in 1995, including water for agriculture use. Palestinian numbers are 93 million cubic meters for domestic (non-agricultural) on the West Bank (but a third of that is lost). Population figures for the West Bank are 2.4 million according to the PA, IDG says 1.4 million and I saw a source from CIA that says 2.241 (which minus 250,000 Palestinians in East Jerusalem tied in to the Israeli pipeline systems means 2 million users of the Palestinian network). The population figure are important with regard to whether water consumption is acceptable. (Gvirtzman says Palestinian water consumption is close to Israel's per capita but that is dependent on a 1.4 milllion population figure). Oslo says water, whether provided by Israel or Palestinians, is to be provided at "the full real cost incurred by the supplier, including cost of production at the source and the conveyance all the way to the point of delivery. "Gvirtzman says that Mekarot is paid by Israel from taxes collected by Israel on behalf of the PA. I have not read anything else about whether Palestinians pay for water other than the water provided by Mekarot (and Ricky's anecdotal descriptions). There is no dispute about the 33% leakage rate. There is dispute about the willingess of Palestinians to build waste treatment plants (Gvirtzman says there is funding for major Palestinian to build plants in their major cities with international funding but Palestinian sources say they are impeded from doing so). Again, with regard to drilling wells Gvirtzman says the Palestinians are not building 50% of the wells that have been approved but Palestinian sources indicate that there may be difficulties with drilling the wells.

As to Ricky's latest points (read after I wrote the above) 96% of Palestinians are connected to a water pipeline network. As for prices paid by those not connected to a pipeline, Oslo II directs that that the real cost be paid. So I imagine that would be expensive but that is only a small percentage. I can't figure out Ricky's article. (it does not say that it comes from Mekarot btw) The article talks about private companies getting contracts for the water by the PA. Then a little below that it says that water production costs are not being recovered and only 50% of what is billing is recovered in the West Bank. But that appears to be these private companies trying to recover for water provided to the Palestinians. Mekarot is paid by Israel (from taxes collected on behalf of the PA) The article does not mention Mekarot when it discusses water costs. So it appears that the Palestinians are being at least billed for their water (by private companies contracting with the PA), but bill collection has been poor (only 50% on the West Bank and 20% on Gaza)

By the way the Joint Water Council is composed of equal numbers of Israeli and Palestinian members so not sure why it would be oriented towards Israel.

bbauska

Well perhaps you can post a link to the difference in price of water provided to a Palestinian and water provided to a Jew

The settlers don't need to buy tankered water. They don't pay the 6 times cost.
In fact some of them resell piped in water to thirsty Palestinians, above the mekarot prices...(I keep wanting to type merkaat)

ray

I wonder whether part of the problem here is that the system is devoid of market incentives

Mekarot is set up as a not for profit utility. The revenue is supposed to just meet the costs.. And frankly it looks like they fulfill this role admirably well.
The issue of differing costs, is only for those Palestinians who have no reliable delivery of piped water. They end up paying for empty pipes. Or also having to pay for tankered water to get by ...
Unfortunately thats most of them not directly in jeruselum or directly connected to a settlement.
And thats largely down to the administration of the Joint Water commission and the intransigence of the IDF. There are plenty of projects that the IDF has vetoed, or that foreign partners have walked from due to Israelis water commission intransigence. Certainly the alleviation of Palestinian water shortage is not an Israelis priority.

In the absence of statistics that either side will trust, and I don't trust the IDF any more than I would any other group that can't be audited independently and yet has a stake in the way the numbers come out ... ....
The overwhelming evidence from neutral visitors is that there is an obvious inequity in water access between Jews and Arabs. Particularly settlers and arabs.
And the overwhelming evidence is that development of Arab water resources is thwarted by the IDF.
That's coming from foreign governments and corporations, neutral news sources, UN Agencies, The World Bank, etc.
They can't all be "lieing" can they?

freeman 3

By the way the Joint Water Council is composed of equal numbers of Israeli and Palestinian members so not sure why it would be oriented towards Israel.

The IDF has to approve all projects proposed, for starters....
And as shown in previous links, they seldom approve palestinian proposals . (See the sewage plant they delayed ruling on for 10 years then vetoed.)

and here's an analysis of the workings of the joint committee...

Water in th West Bank is controlledby the Israeli–Palestinian Joint Water Committee.
In a comprehensive 2013 study by the British researcher Jan Selby, the functioning of the Joint Water Committee during the periode 1995-2008 was analysed. Selby found that the ″cooperation has led neither to peace nor sustainable development.″ Instead, ″’cooperation’ has been an instrument of Israeli political control and even colonisation. ″Israeli-Palestinian water ‘cooperation’ – in the form of a Joint Water Committee (JWC) – has been associated with a significant worsening of the Palestinian water supply crisis. Since the establishment of the JWC, Israel has vetoed every single Palestinian application for new wells into the largest shared water resource, the Western Basin of the Mountain Aquifer, and has delayed approval of other well applications for up to eight years.″ In contrast, ″The Palestinian Water Authority has approved every single Israeli application for new water supply facilities for West Bank settlements. This has been done with the knowledge of Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas and constitutes the first such evidence of the PA lending its official consent to parts of Israel’s settlement expansion programme. International donors have not challenged Israel’s use of the JWC as an instrument of control.″[7]

The researcher concluded, after studying a 13-year period of the Joint Water Committee's functioning, that the committee not only represents another dimension of asymmetry (between Israel and the Palestinians) and of Israel’s ability to coerce, limit and impose conditions on the Palestinians, but also that its activity has enabled the entrenchment of Israel’s takeover of the West Bank. The Palestinian Authority approved major projects to expand the water infrastructure in Israeli settlements after it was made clear that otherwise Israel would not allow the PA to repair and improve the water infrastructure serving its own population.[8]

According to the PA, "the main reason why settlement related water supply lines have been approved in the past is that most Palestinian communities in the West Bank receive their water supply from the lines that feed the Israeli settlements. Due to the need to supply water to these communities and the Israeli refusal to approve new systems solely serving Palestinian communities, the Palestinian hand was forced to agree to projects of such nature. Also the Israeli side has always conditioned the approval of Palestinian projects on approval by Palestine of Israeli projects". The Palestinians expected that the settlements would be evacuated following a permanent status agreement and that any approvals thus would only be of temporary nature until evacuation occurs. Since 2010, however, the Palestinian Water Authority (PWA) has refused to approve projects in the settlements, leading to a stalemate in the work of the committee.[8]


If Palestinians want to buy water trucked in there is only one source . An Israelis nationalized company.
The Israelis also control the quantities of rain water collected by the Palestinian Villagers. According to the PWA, the Israeli Army more often destroys the small Palestinian water tankers and the surface rainwater collection wells

Construction of a Salfit sewage treatment plant was initially approved in early 1997 by JWC and IDF, but the construction was ordered to stop in 1998, because on that location it would hinder the intended expansion of the nearby settlement Ariel. In 2001, Israel paid the German donors a fraction of the financial damage as compensation. In 2007, the IDF proposed to convey the waste from the settlements to Israel. A Palestinian treatment plant would “create additional environmental hazards and damage the landscape”, thus the army proposed to treat the Palestinian sewage also in Israel. The Palestinian Water Authority rejected this, as it would have to pay for the treatment and loose the recycled water. Ariel, however, continued to discharge its untreated wastewater in the vicinit
y
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2 ... _Committee

rickyp wrote:bbauska

Well perhaps you can post a link to the difference in price of water provided to a Palestinian and water provided to a Jew

The settlers don't need to buy tankered water. They don't pay the 6 times cost.
In fact some of them resell piped in water to thirsty Palestinians, above the mekarot prices...(I keep wanting to type merkaat)

Link please as to Settlers charging Palestinians more.

Also, how is this the fault of Mekorot? Isn't this a settlers issue?

Well, I am not sure that this overall discussion has made the water issue that clear. But it is kind of hard to find Israel morally culpable with regard to not providing water to the Palestinians when the proof of same is not clear. Unless someone can come up with a clear overall picture of what is going on (and I concede that I have not done so) then we are left with that.

Ricky:

ray

I wonder whether part of the problem here is that the system is devoid of market incentives

Mekarot is set up as a not for profit utility.

No, they are a for profit utility, or at least they were in 2008.

Ricky:

What we've seen is that the Joint Water Commission and the Israelis Water Commission do seem to be sophisticated management entrerprises...entirely beholden to the whims of the IDF and security decisions

.

Whims and security decisions seem like very different things to me. I don't have a problem with their being beholden to security decisions. That seems reasonable given the situation.

ray

No, they are a for profit utility, or at least they were in 2008.

http://www.mekorot.co.il/Eng/newsite/Ab ... ation.aspx

I take it back. The domestic side of Mekorot is supposed to balance the revenues and expenses. But they are trying to expand internationally. And I think we've all been spelling the name wrong. Web site linked above...

Ricky:

What we've seen is that the Joint Water Commission and the Israelis Water Commission do seem to be sophisticated management entrerprises...entirely beholden to the whims of the IDF and security decisions

.

Ray

Whims and security decisions seem like very different things to me. I don't have a problem with their being beholden to security decisions. That seems reasonable given the situation.

Well, its pretty easy to claim a security reason without having to justify it too much.
But many people don't buy the jusrtifications of security for the constant refusal of the JWC or the IDF to allow Palestinian development of water unilaterally. Only projects tied in with development of resources for settlements have been approved...

Mekorot's international business is facing some up hill battles. The Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions Movement recently persuaded the Argentinian government to cancel an agreement with Mekrot to build and operate a $170 million dollar water treatment plant in Argentina.

Now, Freeman you claim that the issue is unclear and that there isn't sufficient proof.
However, the International Community, outside of the Middle East, seems to be passing judgement through their actions and words.

Amnesty International has accused Israel of depriving Palestinians of their access to water “as a means of expulsion”. A French parliamentary report accused Israel of imposing a system of “water apartheid” in the occupied Palestinian territory.

The Buenos Aires provincial government approved a drinking water plant project deal with a consortium led by Mekorot following a visit to Israel by state governor Daniel Scioli in 2011, but protests and lobbying have persuaded local authorities to suspend the project.

The large Dutch water utility Vitens suspended a cooperation agreement with Mekorot on the grounds that the relationship violated its “commitment to international law” in a high profile announcement in December.

“After investigating, we concluded that Mekorot came to Argentina with the intention to repeat what they are doing in Palestine. Water is a right for all and no company should be able to provide water in a discriminatory way,” said Adolfo, an engineer and a representative of the CTA/ ATE Hidráulica trade union in Buenos Aires that campaigned against the Mekorot plant.

- See more at: http://www.bdsmovement.net/2014/170m-ar ... rcUiB.dpuf

Could they all be wrong and proved wrong with some numbers from the Israelis Water Commission? I doubt that the analysis by the IWC is going to compell any wholesale change of international opinion of those who have done business with or closely investigated the Palestinian dealings with Merkorot... They seem to have made their judgement.

What's in it for countries to side with Israel, Ricky? The Arab countries have oil so it does not make sense for countries dependent on oil to alienate the Arab countries by supporting Israel. I am happy to look at facts, but I don't much care for how other countries or other groups think about what is going on between the Palestinians and Israelis.

Let me get this straight...

It is fine for other countries to decide they don't want to deal with Israel and it's companies, but not fine for Israel and it's companies to decide who they want to deal with?

Does that seem a bit one-sided?

freeman3

What's in it for countries to side with Israel, Ricky? The Arab countries have oil so it does not make sense for countries dependent on oil to alienate the Arab countries by supporting Israel. I am happy to look at facts, but I don't much care for how other countries or other groups think about what is going on between the Palestinians and Israelis

In the case of Argentine, we know it was at least a $170M investment, and a new water plant...
So there would have been a significant investment.
By the way Argentina gets most of their oil domestically. Some finished products they get from the USA. So they aren't cowed by the Saudis on this .... Neither would the Dutch be, since they get their oil from Norway and the UK... (North Sea). Shell Oil is involved in the Middle East, but they aren't the Nethelands government .

As for facts? You're only really interested in one source Freeman and one narrow set of data.
Do all of the International sources listed previously spout nonsense but only the Israelis Water Commission offer facts? You've addressed none of the information supplied on the workings of the Joint Commission for instance... Or how its actually the IDF that controls the Joint Commission...
Could it be that all of the nations abandoning development work with Mekorot in Palestine and in their own countries, are making a judgement because they are exposed to more factual information than the the IWC provides? Including in person on the ground experience? I think this is highly likely.


bbauska

It is fine for other countries to decide they don't want to deal with Israel and it's companies, but not fine for Israel and it's companies to decide who they want to deal with?
Does that seem a bit one-sided?

In the same way that it was okay for the South Africans to impose apartheid on the black population prior to 1991, dealing with the blacks the way they want.
Israel has imposed apartheid upon the occupied territories.
Both with security zones, and walls and areas of exclusion and travel restrictions. And with asymetrical access to resources. Especially water. And in a dessert access to water is especially important. The BDS movement claims that the delayed development of water resources in an equitable fashion is an attempt to force Palestinians to relocate. And with the Palestinians forced to leave it would be easier to permanently occupy the area... Perhaps that is the long game. Certainly Israel has not indicated through its control of water development that they want the Arabs in the West Bank to prosper in the same way that the jewish settlers have been able to prosper due to an almost unlimited access to water, especially for irrigation.

This is not a question of market choice. Its a moral question.