bbauska

Do the Israeli people pay for water?

The same way that you pay in the US. From a regulated utility company.
But Palestinians dealing with Merokot aren't in quite so simple an arrangement.

Palestinians, however, still have to buy water, often their own, from Israel’s National Water Carrier Mekorot and from the Jewish settlers in the West Bank at a much higher price. Abed Mousa Abu Reedeh from Qasra village in Nablus district in West Bank tells Al-Jazeera that Israel built a Jewish settlement called ‘Majdleen’ in Qasra village in 1984. Since then, the Jewish settlers have been selling water to them at an exorbitant price. For instance, they charge the Palestinians about 70 Shekels (17 USD) for a 3.5 cubic metre water tank whereas the usual price for one cubic metre of water tank is only 4 Shekels (less than a dollar).

The Palestinians have no options. The IDF only allows Merokot tankers to move about the west bank.
And has been demonstrated the Joint Commission has not allowed Palestinians to complete well drilling they've applied for, not build sewage plants they've applied for ....
They are not free . to the extent that even cisterns, collecting water from rain, are often destroyed by the IDf as threats to security. (I suppose the theory being that munitions are being hidden in the water tanks...)

The relationship in the West Bank is occupier and occupied. There's is no equity in the relationship Saying, that they both have to pay for water .... is not the same as saying their relationship to the water authority and their access to water is equivalent.

rickyp wrote:bbauska

Do the Israeli people pay for water?

The same way that you pay in the US. From a regulated utility company.
But Palestinians dealing with Merokot aren't in quite so simple an arrangement.

Palestinians, however, still have to buy water, often their own, from Israel’s National Water Carrier Mekorot and from the Jewish settlers in the West Bank at a much higher price. Abed Mousa Abu Reedeh from Qasra village in Nablus district in West Bank tells Al-Jazeera that Israel built a Jewish settlement called ‘Majdleen’ in Qasra village in 1984. Since then, the Jewish settlers have been selling water to them at an exorbitant price. For instance, they charge the Palestinians about 70 Shekels (17 USD) for a 3.5 cubic metre water tank whereas the usual price for one cubic metre of water tank is only 4 Shekels (less than a dollar).

The Palestinians have no options. The IDF only allows Merokot tankers to move about the west bank.
And has been demonstrated the Joint Commission has not allowed Palestinians to complete well drilling they've applied for, not build sewage plants they've applied for ....
They are not free . to the extent that even cisterns, collecting water from rain, are often destroyed by the IDf as threats to security. (I suppose the theory being that munitions are being hidden in the water tanks...)

The relationship in the West Bank is occupier and occupied. There's is no equity in the relationship Saying, that they both have to pay for water .... is not the same as saying their relationship to the water authority and their access to water is equivalent.

Mekorot (I checked the business name, btw (be more careful, it impedes your credibility)) is a private company from what I see.

The disparate price listed in the quote is from Jewish settlers, not Mekorot. There is nothing I have found that shows Mekorot having a different price. Show me that. The fact that settlers treat Palestinians differently (and vice versa) should not surprise you.

So Owen found some contrary figures. I took some time and effort to try and figure out what statements are reasonable . Here is my response:

(a) Water supplied to Palestinians on West Bank

1. Givirtman study-- 178 million cubic meters in 2006 up to about 200 now
2. B'Tselem figures--85 million in 2008, 88 million in 2011. Wikipedia says 93 million in 2012.
3. Oslo II in 1995--118 million in 1995

So according to the Palestinian narrative either they were wrong about how much water they got in 1995 or their supply has been dropping . But their figures have recently gone up from 2008 to 2012, from 85 million to 93. In the Wikipedia article there is just the 93 million figure but a link to the BTselem article breaks it down by district. Why would the Palestinians been so wrong in their assessments of the water supply in 1995 and why would they would have recently rebounded? Yeah, the BTselem article takes some guesses but there is no way to assess those explanations, especially with the lack of figures.
Here is the data from the Gvirtzman study for 2006:

1. Israeli Domestic Plants

a. North Samaria 1
b. central Samaria 14
c. West Benjamin. 6
d. Jerusalem Periphery 23
e. Etzyon-Judea 20
f. South Hebron 1
(40 goes to Palestian, 15 direct and 25 to Palestinisn plants

Palestinian Domestic Plants

a. Jenin 4
b. Nablus 10
c. Ramallah 13
d. Bethlehem 23
Total 50 but 25 from Mekorot

3. Israeli Agriculture Plants

a. Mchola 7
b central Jordan 21
c. Kane springs 1
29 ( 6 to Palestinian)

4. Palestinian Agriculture
a. Jenin 16
b. turkham 21
c. Qalailiyah 20
d. Faria-Giflin 21
e. Uja 14
f. Jericho 15

107

So 15+50+6+107=178

So the Israeli figures are extensively documented. And Palestinians have their figures. But their figures are at odds with what was determined in 1995. How much trust do we have in the Palestinian Water Authority Figures. Do they have an accurate count of water supplied? They are a new entity. Also, remember Palestinians do not pay Israel directly for their water. Israel pays Mekarot from taxes collected on behalf of the PA. For the individual Palestinian they are getting the water for free. I have not seen that the Palestinians have their own charges to use water. What incentive is there for the PWA to keep accurate records if there are no charges for use. I guess I am going to go with the the more sophisticated society when it comes to record-keeping, especially when the Palestinian figures do not make much sense

Where did 118 figure come from:

Oslo II agreement:

Eastern Aquifer. 54 million to Palestinians and 78 to be developed

North Eastern Aquifer 42 to Palestinians

Western. 22 to Palestinians

So you have
118 to Palestinians at time of agreement and 78 million to be developed with new wells from eastern Aquifer

2. Not drilling of wells


a. Givirtman study identifies 70 approved wells and 22 demonstration wells hand been approved. Not sure why problems with one explain the inactivity

3. Waste Water plants-- again anecdotal problems do not explain why they have not started more waste water plants for treating sewage for all their major towns with international funding. How about trying to do them in all the cities and then if Israel obstructs then you have a big PR issue. No let 's put one in an area that conflicts with an Israeli settlement so we can cry about Israeli obstructionism.

4. Illegal drilling

a. Under Oslo II the Palestinians were supposed to get their future needs by new wells in the Eastern Aquifer. Gvirtzman study indicates they are drilling a lot of unapproved wells in the north-east aquifer.

5. The Givirtzman study is based on a Palestinian pop of 1.4 million on West Bank--the Palestinians claim it is 2.4 million but the Israel Demographic Group says that they count people who should not be counted because they are not connected to the Palestinian pipeline system. Owen cited Arnon Soffer as an Israeli being very critical of the study. But Soffer has his own bias it appears. He has been very concerned that Arab population growth threatened to destroy Israel. Interesting to quote someone who is extremely anti-Arab...http://www.jpost.com/Features/I-didnt-s ... lestinians

Some sources:

http://www.biu.ac.il/SOC/besa/MSPS94.pdf
http://environment.research.yale.edu/do ... shamir.pdf
http://www.btselem.org/water/statistics. (This is link from Owen's cite that shows detailed Palestinian figures)

freeman3 wrote:4. Illegal drilling

a. Under Oslo II the Palestinians were supposed to get their future needs by new wells in the Eastern Aquifer. Gvirtzman study indicates they are drilling a lot of unapproved wells in the north-east aquifer.

5. The Givirtzman study is based on a Palestinian pop of 1.4 million on West Bank--the Palestinians claim it is 2.4 million but the Israel Demographic Group says that they count people who should not be counted because they are not connected to the Palestinian pipeline system. Owen cited Arnon Soffer as an Israeli being very critical of the study. But Soffer has his own bias it appears. He has been very concerned that Arab population growth threatened to destroy Israel.

The article also points out that official Israeli figures are still nearer to 2.4M than the IDG's 1,4M.

There are people not on the pipeline system who are in the West Bank - and so are reliant on water supplied in other ways, such as the water bought in or collecting rainwater, or local wells. the latter two are not always reliable as in Zone C the Israelis can cut them off. And sometimes do.

And why should I avoid an anti-Arab Israeli? Surely we should look at all sides of an argument...

The IDG says Israel's government simply relies on the PA for estimates of the Palestinian population so their figures would not count as an independent source. There is no doubt that Israeli politics are heavily implicated in these population estimates. Soffer is concerned that Arab population growth will overwhelm Israel's status as a Jewish state; The IDG apparently does not want to negotiate with the Palestinians for a new state and wants to show that the West Bank could be incorporated into Israel without a problem (I am not sure about that last part, that comes from Israelis criticizing the IDG, but clearly the IDG has political reasons for minimizing the Palestinian population on the West Bank.)

I did find one other source--the CIA. They have a 2.241 million estimate for Arabs on the West Bank. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Palestinian_territories
So if you subtracted the 250,000 Palestinians living in East Jerusalem then you would have a Palestinian population of 2 million connected to the Palestinian water supply network.

bbauska

Mekorot (I checked the business name, btw (be more careful, it impedes your credibility)) is a private company from what I see.

So you type accuately but can't check facts very well.
Merkorot is Israels' national water company. Its a state company. (By the way, do you know that virtually all land in Israel is owned by the State? )

Here's an interesting view from a company which has tried to deal with Merkorot...
December 10, 2013
.JTA) — The largest public water company in the Netherlands has severed ties with Israel’s national water company over its operation in West Bank settlements.
Vitens in ceasing cooperation with Merkorot said in a statement Tuesday on its website that it “attaches great importance to integrity and adheres to international law and regulations. After discussions with stakeholders, the company came to the realization that it is extremely difficult to work together on future projects since they cannot be separated from their political context.”
The Dutch company reportedly also consulted with the Dutch Foreign Ministry. Lilianne Ploumen, the Dutch minister for foreign trade and development cooperation, canceled a visit this week to Mekorot, the Dutch daily NRC Handelsblad reported, according to Haaretz.
Last month, Vitens signed a cooperation agreement with Merkorot to develop several joint projects.
Vitens provides water to 5.4 million people in the Netherlands.
Mekorot provides some water to the Palestinian Authority, but has been slammed in the Dutch media and by the government for drilling for water in the West Bank and for what they say is discrimination against the Palestinian Authority in its water supply.


Read more: http://www.jta.org/2013/12/10/news-opin ... z3EdOwn4t9

freeman

I guess I am going to go with the the more sophisticated society when it comes to record-keeping, especially when the Palestinian figures do not make much sense

This sounds .... incredibly racist... You don't really mean this do you?
The notion that the palestinian's on the west bank can't manage their urban affairs because they are less sophisticated... ignores the way the
joint commission on water works. The Palestinians on the joint commision do not have the same controls or access to the actual water. They inevitably have to defer to the IDF in anything they try to do. They are an occupied people. They cannot even move freely within their territory ...
And yet you expect them to have the control systems that equal that of their occupiers?
The Dutch, an even handed people, abandoned their business relationship with Mekorot because they could clearly see that Mekorot wasn't dealing in good faith.
There's clearly a pattern where Palestinians are not treated fairly, or equitably. As much as the Israel Water Authority, and the IDF want to confuse that debate by hairsplitting on statistics.... And yet you want to blame Palestinian shortcomings on their lack of sophistication as a society?

There's a saying : Do not demand that a person (or people) pull themselves by their bootstraps - then stand firmly on their boots.

meant to link for bbauska

Mekorot Water Company Ltd. is a Government-owned company and, as Israel's national water company, is responsible for managing the country's water resources, developing new sources and ensuring regular delivery of water to all localities for all purposes. Mekorot is in charge of the wholesale supply of water to urban communities, industries and agricultural users. Mekorot produces and supplies about two-thirds of the total amount of water used in Israel. The remainder is provided through privately-owned facilities. In 1997, Mekorot supplied 1,380 MCM of water, of which 745 MCM were supplied for irrigation, 540 MCM for domestic use, 94 MCM for industry and 27 MCM to replenish over-pumped aquifers. Water was also supplied to Jordan and the Palestinian Authority, in accordance with the peace accord.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... rcity.html

freeman3 wrote:I did find one other source--the CIA. They have a 2.241 million estimate for Arabs on the West Bank. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Palestinian_territories
So if you subtracted the 250,000 Palestinians living in East Jerusalem then you would have a Palestinian population of 2 million connected to the Palestinian water supply network.

Like I say, the truth is probably somewhere in between.

By my reckoning though, even with 190MCM a year, that's less than the 129,000 per capital

Seriously, you don't mean that my statement that Israel society is more sophisticated is racist, do you Ricky? An advanced society builds up over time--Israel has developed into a powerful country but that did not happen at once. It takes time to learn how to govern. Apparently, you expect the Palestinian Authority to immediately do well the things that government does. I am making the very obvious point that Israel is further on this developmental path than the PA. So assuming that each side is not intentionally putting up fraudulent data than I probably put more trust in the Israeli figures on water

You're right Owen--if the population is not 1.4 but 2 million than consumption is not 129,000 liters per year. I took at a look at the Wikipedia article and if you look very carefully you see that 93 million figure is for domestic consumption but then it says that 44 percent of groundwater is for agriculture. So Palestinian figures would indicate 167 million meters supplied (up from 118 in 1995). By the way, if the Palestinian figure of 93 million (for domestic consumption) were correct with a 2 million population you would be have a per capita consumption of 93 liters a day (close to the 100 standard)

There is an opportunity here--if you can cooperate on water you can build trust. I think Israel has done ok. I don't know enough to say that it is entirely the Palestinians' fault (Israel probably has some fault too and there may be other extenuating circumstances) that they are not fixing their pipe system, building waste treatment plants or building wells to help their water supply. But they have an opportunity to show that they can be a good neighbor. Why not be trying to make things better for your people , especially by doing so you will make Israel more accommodating. But it is a microcosm of the whole dispute--when you think you are entitled to the whole water supply you don't feel especially motivated to be more efficient with the one you have. Why settle for the West Bank when you think you are entitled to the whole thing...

freeman3

So assuming that each side is not intentionally putting up fraudulent data than I probably put more trust in the Israeli figures on water

Thats some assumption....
Instead of quibbling over the statistical details, its more instructive to look at how the water resource is actually managed.... What the process of management is... How decisions are arrived at. Who gets the last say and what those decisions have actually been....
What we've seen is that the Joint Water Commission and the Israelis Water Commission do seem to be sophisticated management entrerprises...entirely beholden to the whims of the IDF and security decisions. And that foreign partners like the Dutch, Germans and Austrians who have tried to work with the Palestinians have the same complaints about the Israelis managment as the Palestinians .

rickyp wrote:bbauska

Mekorot (I checked the business name, btw (be more careful, it impedes your credibility)) is a private company from what I see.

So you type accuately but can't check facts very well.
Merkorot is Israels' national water company. Its a state company. (By the way, do you know that virtually all land in Israel is owned by the State? )

RickyP,
No, I did not know that. I also did not know that Mekorot is State owned. That is why I asked.

I still did not find out from your answer if there are different rates for Palestinians and Jews from Mekorot. Is there? Please post the data on that is if you could.