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- Doctor Fate
- Ambassador
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15 Oct 2014, 10:31 am
Sassenach wrote:My concern is the way he has turned the Middle East from a manageable campfire to a raging inferno.
Hmm.. Realistically, if any one man can be said to have done that it was Bush. He was the man who upset the delicate balance of despotic forces in the region by invading Iraq and you can plausibly draw a direct line of causation from that to the 'Arab Spring' and all of the subsequent carnage that has ensued in its wake.
That's why I said "campfire." Bush took out Saddam. Personally, I think we've come to realize the best we can hope for right now in the Arab world is despotic rule. It keeps the religious zealots in check.
However, Obama indirectly removed leaders in Libya and Egypt and has called for the removal of Assad in Syria. Now, in a civics class, these are fine things to advocate for. In the real world, the results have not been pleasant. Obama has taken a dangerous situation and made it much worse.
A larger American presence in Iraq, while it might have been desirable, would not have prevented Libya, Egypt and especially Syria from going up in flames.
Yeah, it took our jets to do that in Libya, and our indifference in Egypt and Syria.
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- Sassenach
- Emissary
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15 Oct 2014, 10:53 am
I hardly think you can call the chaos of the Iraq war a 'campfire'.
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- bbauska
- Administrator
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15 Oct 2014, 11:01 am
Has it gotten better in the last 6 years?
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- Doctor Fate
- Ambassador
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15 Oct 2014, 11:08 am
Sassenach wrote:I hardly think you can call the chaos of the Iraq war a 'campfire'.
If you view it from when Obama took office, I think you can. VP Biden in 2010:
"I am very optimistic about -- about Iraq. I mean, this could be one of the great achievements of this administration. You're going to see 90,000 American troops come marching home by the end of the summer. You're going to see a stable government in Iraq that is actually moving toward a representative government"
Then, of course, there's
President Obama:He also pledged assistance and "a strong and enduring partnership" with the government in Iraq.
"With our diplomats and civilian advisers in the lead, we will help Iraqis strengthen institutions that are just, representative and accountable," Obama said. "We'll build new ties of trade and of commerce, culture and education that unleash the potential of the Iraqi people."
The president also appeared to deliver a warning Iran, which he has accused of helping insurgents in Iraq. "We'll partner with an Iraq that contributes to regional security and peace, just as we insist that other nations respect Iraq's sovereignty," Obama said.
The announcement came a day after the death of former Libya dictator Moammar Gadhafi, bringing that conflict to an end.
The president also noted he is planning to withdraw U.S. troops from Afghanistan, a process hoped to be completed by 2014.
Obama inherited the Iraq and Afghanistan wars from predecessor George W. Bush.
"I would note that the end of war in Iraq reflects a larger transition," Obama said. "The tide of war is receding."
So, yeah, I think "campfire" is an apt description. It was under control and then someone dropped the ball.
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- freeman3
- Adjutant
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15 Oct 2014, 1:59 pm
Panetta got 3 million dollars for his book deal. The reality is that once Obama leaves office Panetta would not get anything for a book. And of course these books need attention-grabbers, which in this case is going to be criticism of Obama. And I agree in principle with George that it is good to know about these things.And I don't doubt that Panetta believes what he is saying...it just feels disloyal and a bit money-grubbing somehow but I guess if someone was willing to pay me 3 million I would have a hard time turning it down, too...
