danivon wrote:

Ray Jay wrote:
[and may have to allow some Palestinians to settle in Israel proper.

maybe. But as Israel treats its Arab citizens so well, this should not present a major problem, surely. Alternatively they could pay out compensation, which is indeed giving up money.

Christians may have religious freedom, but they find it hard to visit their holy sites.

What I am saying is that when it comes to the conflict between them, the Israeli and Palestinian positions have not been that moral, and neither has really shone out as being better than the other. That does not mean that there are other aspects of Israel, or Palestine that have other moral dimensions. It's just that they are not as relevant.

Not sure they are taking in many refugees from Syria, or did from Lebanon, and perhaps they have had the room to given than many thousands of people left the land, and they have been able to move some people into settlements in the West Bank. Taking in refugees is morally good in most cases.

At the end of Jordanian rule in 1967, the West Bank Palestinians received a relatively low 65 million cubic meters of water per year.

Whatever the depredations of the Israeli occupation may have been, there is no doubt that they did not apply to the issue of water supplies. Within five years of the Israeli takeover in 1967, the water supply grew by 50 percent; and the IDF Civilian Administration, which rules over the territory, established a pumping system that brought water directly to city centers, where residents could fill water containers for personal use.
...
Up to the signing of the Oslo Accords the Palestinian water supply doubled, reaching approximately 120 million cubic meters per year by the time the interim agreements were signed in 1995. Since then, it has almost doubled again. In 2010, the Civil Administration reported consumption at 190 million cubic meters per year.
...
In terms of per capita consumption, there has also been substantial improvement. In 1967, per capita consumption stood at 93,000 liters per year. In 2006, it stood at 129,000 liters per year, close to the average in Israel proper—170,000 liters per year.

A Jewish state would not have come into being without the uprooting of 700,000 Palestinians. Therefore it was necessary to uproot them. There was no choice but to expel that population. It was necessary to cleanse the hinterland and cleanse the border areas and cleanse the main roads. It was necessary to cleanse the villages from which our convoys and our settlements were fired on.

Morris also said that Israel was justified in uprooting the Palestinian 'fifth column' after the Arabs attacked the infant state, and that proportion should be employed when considering the "small war crimes" committed by Israel in 1948.

You have to put things in proportion. These are small war crimes. All told, if we take all the massacres and all the executions of 1948, we come to about 800 who were killed. In comparison to the massacres that were perpetrated in Bosnia, that's peanuts. In comparison to the massacres the Russians perpetrated against the Germans at Stalingrad, that's chicken feed. When you take into account that there was a bloody civil war here and that we lost an entire 1 percent of the population, you find that we behaved very well.
...

My turning point began after 2000. I wasn't a great optimist even before that. True, I always voted Labor or Meretz or Sheli and in 1988 I refused to serve in the territories and was jailed for it, but I always doubted the intentions of the Palestinians. The events of Camp David and what followed in their wake turned the doubt into certainty. When the Palestinians rejected the proposal of [prime minister Ehud] Barak in July 2000 and the Clinton proposal in December 2000, I understood that they are unwilling to accept the two-state solution. They want it all: Lod and Acre and Jaffa.[5]

Morris still describes himself as left-wing because of his support for the two state solution, but he believes his generation will not see peace in Israel.[5] He has said, "I don't see the suicide bombings as isolated acts. They express the deep will of the Palestinian people. That is what the majority of the Palestinians want."[5] On the subject of "people the Palestinian society sends to carry out the terrorist attacks," who he calls "serial killers" and "barbarians who want to take our lives," Morris said:

The bombing of the buses and restaurants really shook me. They made me understand the depth of the hatred for us. They made me understand that the Palestinian, Arab and Muslim hostility toward Jewish existence here is taking us to the brink of destruction....

Ray Jay wrote:Regarding your first sarcastic sentence, let's be honest. Israel was founded to be a Jewish state. It does treat its Arab minority well, That's not the same thing as wanting a larger minority population. The reality is that they are surrounded by hostile states with similar ethnicities as their largest minority population. It is not an ideal situation.

Regarding your second sentence, you make it sound like the Palestinian leadership has made an offer to accept compensation instead of their right of return. If they had, I think that the Israelis would be willing to do it, especially since they would get help from the EU and the US. However as far as I know, the Palestinian leadership has not said they would accept no right of return. Some say it is the largest sticking point.

Danivon:

Christians may have religious freedom, but they find it hard to visit their holy sites.

I believe a more accurate formulation of that sentence is "Christians have religious freedom, but they may find it hard to visit some of their holy sites". Prior to the Intifadas it was a lot easier.

Fair enough. What I am saying is that in the first 55 or so years of the conflict (1920 - 1975), the Israelis acted much more morally than the Arabs and that in the last 40 or so years of the conflict, the Israelis have acted somewhat more morally than the Palestinians.

Ricky has been quoting Benny Morris. I thought it may be helpful to provide a summary of his views (which I largely share

Morris refuted many of the myths about the founding of Israel by documenting the brutality used by Israel to implement the expulsion of between 600,000 to 760,000 Palestinians civilians, whose status as refugees continues to the present day.
Morris cites Israeli military records from 1948 which tell how civilians, including women and children, were massacred; there were also cases of mutilation and rape, such as at Deir Yassin. The massacre at Deir Yassin was so successful, that merely informing civilians that their community would be the next Deir Yassin would usually be enough to cause the entire civilian population to flee. If that community did not leave voluntarily, the Israelis would sometimes proceed with executions of POW's and civilians. Morris gives the names of 369 cities, towns and villages which were depopulated either by Israeli assault and direct expulsion or by the use of propaganda which caused the residents to flee. Either way, they became refugees.
Morris documents that there were many massacres. The civilians of Lydda suffered the largest death toll, including a massacre of 250, followed by the expulsion of almost all civilians, who were forced to march the 10-15 miles to the Arab front lines on foot during a summer heat wave, resulting in possibly 335 additional deaths from exhaustion, dehydration and disease. Morris writes that the order expelling the population of Lydda, "without regard to age," was signed by Yitzhak Rabin, (a future Prime Minister of Israel.)
The reaction of the Israeli public to Morris' book was outrage because his book helped destroy the image of Israel's "purity of arms;" the idea that Israel won its victory without massacres, rapes, and mutilations. Morris paid a heavy personal price; he is still vilified by the Israeli public, his coworkers, his friends and his family

A different view of water in the West Bank

To avoid such confusion, this article is largely based on statistics published by the Israeli Water Authority, and research by Professor Haim Gvirtzman, a hydrologist from the Hebrew University of Jerusalem.

Restrictions on the Right to Water
80. Information and testimonies corroborate the impact of settlement expansion on the
right to water of Palestinians, including as pointed out inter alia by the Committee on
Economic, Social and Cultural Rights, the high discrepancy between water allocation for
Palestinians and settlers, and inequitable access.
81. The capacity of the Palestinian Water Authority (PWA) to develop new water
resources is hampered by the water management arrangements governed by the Interim
Agreement and the Joint Water Commission (JWC) that it established, in which
“fundamental asymmetries – of power, of capacity, of information” give Israel
predominance in the allocation of West Bank water resources, of which it withdraws 90 per
cent.55 The Mission learnt that a large number of Palestinian projects are rejected by the
JWC. In Area C, approval is further required from the Israeli Civil Administration, even for
small-scale projects such as a well or rainwater collection cistern.
82. The PWA’s ability to transfer water to areas facing water shortages is severely
inhibited by the territorial fragmentation, since almost every project implies movement
through Area C. The Mission heard testimony about water resources damaged or destroyed
by the construction of the Wall or lost to the seam zone, cutting off villages from their
wells, springs and cisterns. In the Jordan Valley, deep water drillings by the Israeli national
water company Mekorot and the agro-industrial company Mehadrin have caused
Palestinian wells and springs to dry up. Eighty per cent of the total water resources drilled
in the area is consumed by Israel and the settlements.
83. The lack of availability of Palestinian water resources has led to chronic shortages
among Palestinian communities in Area C and a dependence on Mekorot, to whom
authority over the West Bank water resources was transferred from the military in 1982.
84. Mekorot supplies almost half the water consumed by Palestinian communities. The
Mission heard that Palestinians do not have access to Israeli recycled water available to
settlements, and have to use water from the more expensive drinking water supply for
irrigation purposes. In the event of a water shortage, valves supplying Palestinian
communities are turned off; this does not happen for settlements.
85. The Mission heard of situations where villagers must travel several kilometres to get
water when closer water resources serve neighbouring settlements. Settlements benefit from
enough water to run farms and orchards, and for swimming pools and spas, while
Palestinians often struggle to access the minimum water requirements. The Mission heard
that some settlements consume around 400 l/c/d56, whereas Palestinian consumption is 73
l/c/d, and as little as 10-20 l/c/d57 for Bedouin communities which depend on expensive
and low quality tanker water. In East Jerusalem houses built without a permit cannot
connect to the water network.
Water shortages are further exacerbated by restrictions on movement, destruction of
infrastructure, expropriations, forced evictions and settler violence, which also largely
contributes to diminishing access to water for Palestinians.
87. Forcible takeovers and vandalism by settlers increasingly impair access to water. In
March 2012, according to OCHA, 30 springs in the vicinity of settlements had been

55 World Bank, “West Bank and Gaza Assessment of Restrictions on Palestinian Water Sector
Development”, April 2009, para. 130.
56 Litres per capita per day. Minimum recommended by WHO, 100 l/c/d.
57 OCHA Factsheet - The Humanitarian Impact of Israeli-declared “Firing Zones” in the West Bank,
(August 2012). 18
completely taken over by settlers and 26 were at risk, with settlers fencing them off and
threatening villagers. Some of the seized springs are turned into “tourist attractions” or
recreational sites, which receive Israeli government support.
88. Destruction of water infrastructure, including rainwater cisterns, by Israeli
authorities has increased since the beginning of 2010; double in 2012 compared to 201158
.
The denial of water is used to trigger displacement, particularly in areas slated for
settlement expansion, especially since these communities are mostly farmers and herders
who depend on water for their livelihoods. A number of testimonies highlighted that the
cutting off from water resources often precedes dispossession of lands for new settlement
projects

Ray Jay wrote:They have provided medical care to Syrians and Lebanese who have been injured, but Israel hasn't taken in many refugees, if any. Frankly, I don't think that's their responsibility. Can't we be realistic here? There are many Arab and Muslim countries that control huge amounts of land. They are generally much less densely populated than Israel. Cannot they take in Syrian and other refugees? After the endless hostility that Israel has experienced from Syria, does Israel really have this responsibility too? Have Syrian refugees requested it?

Division in the Oslo II Accord

The 1995 Oslo II Accord allows the Palestinians in the West Bank the use of up to 118 million cubic meters (mcm) water per year. 80 mcm was supposed to come from to drill new wells. However, the PWA was able to drill new wells for only 30 mcm at the expense of the existing springs and wells.[11][12] In the Oslo II Accord, the Israelis are allotted four times the Palestinian portion or 80% of the West Bank resources.[13] However, 94% (340 mcm) of the Western Aquifer was allotted to the Israelis for use within Israel.[12] The allowed quantities have not been adapted after the end of the supposed five years interim period. The parties established the Joint Water Committee to carry out the provisions of the concerning artikel 40 of Annex III.

Israel extracts more water from the West Bank than agreed in the Oslo Accord, while Palestinian abstractions were within the agreed range. Contrary to expectations under Oslo II, the water actually abstracted by Palestinians in the West Bank has dropped between 1999 and 2007. Due to the Israeli over-extraction, aquifer levels are near ″the point where irreversible damage is done to the aquifer.″ Israeli wells in the West Bank have dried up local Palestinian wells and springs.

Rainwater collection

In the West Bank, collection of rainwater is a very limited resource in addition to tanker truck water for Palestinians who lack connection to the water grid, notably in rural areas. However, Israeli authorities control even the collection of small quantities of rainwater. According to the 2009 report "Troubled Waters" by Amnesty International, some 180,000-200,000 Palestinians living in rural communities have no access to running water and the Israeli army often prevents them from even collecting rainwater. The Israeli army frequently destroys small rainwater harvesting cisterns built by Palestinian communities who have no access to running water, or prevents their construction.[36][37]

freeman3 wrote:I read the article that RJ cited and it has a detailed analysis of the issue with specific analysis of how much water Palestinian communities are actually getting. The articles cited by Owen and Ricky do not get at the ultimate issue, which is whether Palestinian communities are getting 129,000 liters per capita? Is that true or not true?

As of 2007, the estimated average per capita supply in the West Bank had increased to about 98 liter per capita per day (98 lpcd). The estimated household use was 50 lpcd, with many households consuming as little as 20 lpcd, even if connected to the network. Due to the fragmentation of the West Bank, movement of water from water-rich areas to Palestinian communities with water shortage is inhibited.[39][40] Therefore, there are huge differences in water use in the eastern and southern West Bank. While the daily consumption in the Jericho district was 161 liters in 2009, in Jericho city even 225 liters, it was less than 100 liters in other areas. In the central Jordan Valley it was about 60 liters. Inhabitants of a-Nu’ima, east of Jericho, had only 24 liters. Residents of villages that are cut off from water supply have to buy water from watertanker operators.[39] All of the eastern West Bank, except the Israeli settlements and Jericho are designated as a closed military area or as an area that for other reasons has access restrictions for Palestinians. In 2012, 90% of the small Palestinian communities living there had less than 60 lpcd. Over half of them, mostly Bedouin or herding communities, often cut off from their traditional wells, had even less than 30 litres per person per day.[41]

As of 2009, the Palestinian Water Authority (PWA) or municipalities provided about 70 lpcd in Gaza, but could not reach all households.[4]

In 2008, the settlements in the Jordan Valley and northern Dead Sea area were allocated 44.8 million m3 (MCM) of water, 97.5 percent of which (43.7 MCM) were for agricultural use. Seventy percent of it was provided by Mekorot. According to Israeli figures, the household use of settlers in the Jordan Valley was 487 liters per capita per day (lpcd) and in the northern Dead Sea area even 727 lpcd. That is three to four times the use of 165 liters in Israel.[39] As the settlers in the in the eastern West Bank use nearly all the water use for agriculture, they in fact export water from the Palestinian Territories.

In 2009, settlers in Pnei Hever, Hebron District, consumed 194 liters per day; those in Efrat, east of Bethlehem, 217 liters.[45]

While many Palestinians living in rural communities have no access to running water, Israeli settlers who export their products have irrigated farms, lush gardens and swimming pools. The 450,000 settlers use as much or even more water than all 2.3 million Palestinians together.[48]

Here are some sources

It is difficult to get unbiased figures

According to the World Bank, water extractions per capita for West Bank Palestinians are about one quarter of those for Israelis, and have declined over the last decade. In 1999, Palestinians in the West Bank used only 190 lpcd from the West Bank resources, the settlers 870 lpcd, and the Israelis used even 1,000 lpcd. Israeli settlers in the West Bank thus used about 4.5 times the amount of water available to the Palestinians.[47]

In 2008, the settlers in the Niran settlement, north of Jericho, used more than 5 times the amount of the nearby Palestinian village al-A’uja. The Argaman settlement, in the central Jordan Valley, used more than 5 times the amount of the adjacent Palestinian village a-Zubeidat. The household use in the Ro’i settlement, in the northern Jordan Valley, was per head 21 times that of the adjacent Bedouin community al-Hadidya, which is not connected to the regular water supply.[39]

In 2009, the settlers in Efrat consumed, with 217 liters, three times the amount of the per capita use of 71 liters in the nearby Palestinian Bethlehem Governorate.[45]