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- Ray Jay
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19 Dec 2012, 9:57 am
It's an op ed with a view. (I incorrectly referred to it as an article in my initial post.) Most op eds present a view as opposed to all sides -- there are more than two -- of the debate.
I don't know who is right or wrong on the magnitude of global warming. However, discounting the views of anyone who disagrees with you and the scientific consensus is not a good way to educate yourself. Say what you like, Ridley is a very credible guy.
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- rickyp
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19 Dec 2012, 10:10 am
Please be patient.
In a day or so, there will almost certainly be a detailed debunking of this guys claims by someone with greater insight and understanding than he has. If the scientists who are expert in the field actually bother debunking anymore...
When the vast majority (98%+) of climate scientists agree on the principles of Anthropogenic Warming, its highly unlikely that one inexpert voice, however bright, is likely to have discovered something that everyone else missed. And by inexpert, I mean in the fields noted. Even if he has achieved much and is obviously amongst the brightest on the planet.
Most government agencies in the US, especially the military and CIA and the Department of Agriculture, have policies and plans for mitigation of the effects of climate change. Most large corporations have also included the reality of climate change within their business scenario calculations. Particularly important institutions that underpin all business like the insurance industry which are becoming alarmists on the expected effects on their industry.
And, most ordinary people in the West, including finally in the US, understand that the world is warming up.
The predicted effects and unpredicted effects are in evidence in innumerable ways. From changes in animal behaviours like migration and range to physical differences and frequent severe weather in greater intensity than experienced very often.
There's an abundance of evidence that contradicts the assertions in this one paper.
But, unless he is debunked or the actual events on earth continue to contradict him ... He might be right.
I say that in the same sense that Jim Carrey's character in Dumb and Dumber responds to his crushes assertion that the odds of them getting together are a billion to one.
"So your saying there's a chance!"
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- bbauska
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19 Dec 2012, 10:12 am
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- Sassenach
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19 Dec 2012, 10:13 am
I've read a fair bit of Matt Ridley's work, and I'm a fan. He wrote a book called The Origins of Virtue a few years back which looked at the spectrum of evolutionary pschology and how it might explain the way that human evolution has resulted in us failing to fall into the prisoner's dilemma trap. It was one of the best-written non-fiction books I've ever read. The books he writes tend not to be original research so much as popular science pieces which pull together ideas from other peoples work and present it to the masses in a more easily understood format. Although his training was in zoology he's very much a scientific generalist and he's written books on a variety of subjects as well as writing a regular scientific column in the Times for many years, which I used to read a lot.
To call him a financial expert is wrong. His job as Chairman of Northern Rock came about through his family connections I believe. He's the younger brother of a senior Tory peer and the family had longstanding connections on the board of Northern Rock. He was chairman but it was a non-exec position, and quite clearly he can't have been all that expert at financial matters given what happened to that bank.
Ridley gets a lot of flak due to his openly right wing political opinions and his establishment connections. While it is of course important to take somebody's background into account before blindly accepting their opinions, it's also important to realise that a lot of the criticism he receives may be motivated by something other than strict concern for the facts.
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- Ray Jay
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19 Dec 2012, 10:24 am
Ricky:
When the vast majority (98%+) of climate scientists agree on the principles of Anthropogenic Warming, its highly unlikely that one inexpert voice, however bright, is likely to have discovered something that everyone else missed.
And, most ordinary people in the West, including finally in the US, understand that the world is warming up.
There's an abundance of evidence that contradicts the assertions in this one paper.
Your comments are terribly unfair and suggest that you have not read the op ed. Ridley isn't at all arguing against Antrhpogenic Warming. He's just saying that the predicted extent is over stated because of a misunderstanding of the feedback loop.
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- freeman2
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19 Dec 2012, 7:45 pm
I did not ignore what he said. However, the person he actually consulted and cited is not even a scientist. He sought after a non-scientist who appears to have an agenda to question global warming. We then have to take Mr. Ridley's word for it with regard to the effects of water vapor amplification and we have no idea whether he has expertise in this area at all. He makes generic cites to research and scientific consensus. Op-Ed pierces are fine with regard to certain issues, but with regard to science I would like to see something published. Otherwise, it may be true, but it is impossible to evaluate. And Mr. Ridley appears to be very right-wing, so yeah I am not going to just trust what he says. I'll file it away and see if we get substantiation for what he says.
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- GMTom
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19 Dec 2012, 8:18 pm
when you make outrageous assertions, it really lessens your position (gee, so much like the whole climate change "consensus science")
98+% agree ???
In 2007, Harris Interactive surveyed 489 randomly selected members of either the American Meteorological Society or the American Geophysical Union for the Statistical Assessment Service (STATS) at George Mason University. The survey found that as of 2007 97% agreed that global temperatures had increased during the past 100 years; 84% said they personally believe human-induced warming was occurring, and 74% agreed that "currently available scientific evidence" substantiated its occurrence. Catastrophic effects in 50-100 years would likely be observed according to 41%, while 44% thought the effects would be moderate and about 13 percent saw relatively little danger, and 5% said they thought human activity did not contribute to greenhouse warming.
a whole bunch no doubt, but hardly 98+%
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- Ray Jay
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19 Dec 2012, 9:30 pm
Freeman:
However, the person he actually consulted and cited is not even a scientist.
He is a mathematician who is finding statistical problems with the IPCC's work.
Freeman:
Op-Ed pierces are fine with regard to certain issues, but with regard to science I would like to see something published. Otherwise, it may be true, but it is impossible to evaluate.
Here's a web article by the Nicholas Lewis whose work Ridley is quoting. Many of the comments are also interesting.
http://judithcurry.com/2011/07/05/the-i ... y-results/Forster/Gregory 06 regressed changes in net radiative flux imbalance, less net radiative forcing, on changes in the global surface temperature, to obtain a direct measure of the overall climate response or feedback parameter (Y, units Wm-2 °C-1). This parameter is the increase in net outgoing radiative flux, adjusted for any change in forcings, for each 1°C rise in the Earth’s mean surface temperature. Forster/Gregory 06 then derived an estimate of equilibrium climate sensitivity (hereafter “climate sensitivity”, with value denoted by S), the rise in surface temperature for a doubling of CO2 concentration, using the generally accepted relation S = 3.7/Y °C.
Measuring radiative flux imbalances provides a direct measure of Y, and hence of S, unlike other ways of diagnosing climate sensitivity. The method is largely unaffected by unforced natural variability in surface temperature and uncertainties in ocean heat uptake, and is relatively insensitive to uncertainties in fairly slowly changing forcings such as tropospheric aerosols. The ordinary least squares (OLS) regression approach used will, however, underestimate Y in the presence of fluctuations in surface temperature that do not give rise to changes in net radiative flux fitting the linear model. Such fluctuations in surface temperature may well be caused by autonomous (non-feedback) variations in clouds, acting as a forcing but not modelled as such. The authors gave reasoned arguments for using OLS regression, stating additionally that – since OLS regression is liable to underestimate Y, and hence overestimate S – doing so reinforced the main conclusion of the paper, that climate sensitivity is relatively low.
Forster & Gregory found that their data gave a central estimate for Y of 2.3 ± 1.4 per °C, with a 95% confidence range. As they stated, this corresponds to S being between 1.0 and 4.1°C, with 95% certainty – what the IPCC calls ‘extremely likely’ – and a central (median) estimate for S of 1.6°C.
Forster & Gregory considered all relevant sources of uncertainty, and settled upon the standard assumption that errors in the observable parameters have a normal distribution. Almost all the uncertainty in fact arose from the statistical fitting of the regression line, with only a small contribution from uncertainties in radiative forcing measurements, and very little from errors in the temperature data. That supports use of OLS regression. The Forster/Gregory 06 results were obtained and presented in a form that accurately reflected the characteristics of the data, with error bands and details of error distribution assumptions, so permitting a valid PDF for S to be computed, and compared with the IPCC’s version.
It follows from Forster & Gregory’s method and error distribution assumption that the PDF of Y is symmetrical, and would be normal if a large number of observations existed. Strictly, the PDF of Y follows a t-distribution, which when the number of observations is limited has somewhat fatter tails than a normal distribution. But Forster & Gregory instead used a large number of random simulations to determine the likely uncertainty range, thereby robustly reflecting the actual distribution. The comparisons given below would in any case be much the same whether a t-distribution or a normal distribution were used. From the close match to the IPCC’s graph (see Figure 5, below) achieved using a normal error distribution, it is evident that the IPCC made a normality assumption, so that has also been done here. On that basis, Figure 2 shows what the PDF of Y looks like. The graph has been cut off at a lower limit of Y = 0.2, corresponding to the upper limit of S = 18.5 that the IPCC imposed when transforming the data, as explained below.
Take a read through and evaluate it for us.

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- rickyp
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20 Dec 2012, 7:26 am
Didn't take long ...
The Rational Optimist: Matt Ridley’s regurgitation of denialist propaganda
http://watchingthedeniers.wordpress.com ... ropaganda/If you care to read the whole thing linked above, good for you. A sample follows. Essentially Ridley appears to have dabbled in some denialist literature, and briefly examines the "science" behind the literature. And builds his arguments . But his understanding of the science doesn't hold up to expert scrutiny and his thesis is rewarmed arguments that have been debunked many times before...
Ridley’s paragraph is fraudulent nonsense.
When one turns to the footnotes section we can see how flimsy Ridley’s arguments are. In order to support his assertion that “average temperatures are more compatible with a low sensitivity model of greenhouse warming” he relies upon one discredited paper by MITs Richard Lindzen.
Real Climate has pulled this apart:
With the hype surrounding the manuscript, one would think that the article provides a sound, rock solid basis for a reduced climate sensitivity. However, our examination of the study’s methods demonstrates that this is not the case. In an article in press (Trenberth et al. 2010 (sub. requ.), hereafter TFOW), we show that LC09 is gravely flawed and its results are wrong on multiple fronts.
Ridley picks just one paper to support his argument that is fashionable amongst the denial community, but has been shown to be badly flawed by the science community.
For his contention that the average global temperature was warmer during the Medieval Warming Period, her relies upon papers from the dubious journal Energy & Environment. Again, for those not familiar with E&E, it is journal whose editor is a known sceptic and has been involved in numerous controversies over publishing flawed research
Here's a specific debunking of one of the theories Ridly builds his arguments upon.
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/ar ... unraveled/The problem with WSJ publishing this is that all they are doing is cleaving to any argument that meets their particular political leaning. Or perhaps their particular desire.
Its an op-ed so they don't go into the usual journalistic method of corroborating and verifying . If they had submitted Ridleys work to realclimate or any of a dozen climate scientists for review before they published would they have done so?
When they publish any kind of news story they first judge how accurate the story is...but not with climate science.
They do a disservice to the community by spreading misinformed opinion like Ridleys.
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- rickyp
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20 Dec 2012, 7:39 am
Tom do you know the difference between a meterologist and a climate scientist? Or in particular a paleo-climatologist?
One studies weather.
The other studies climate.
The third studies climate through the life of our planet.
Your tv weather man is often a meterologist.
Here's a way to look at the scope of denial , and the sources of denial.
Some better data suggests the ‘consensus’ figure is around 97.5% of publishing climatologists and around 90% of all publishing scientists supporting the human-induced climate theory. See this study for more details (PDF – Doran And Zimmerman 2009)
http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/2 ... cientists/
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- Ray Jay
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20 Dec 2012, 7:53 am
Ricky, thanks for the link to real climate ... it seems authoritative; the analysis on both side is over my head. There are people smarter than I am on both sides of the issue. I agree with you that more of the smarter people believe in strong global warming (as opposed to moderate global warming), but that doesn't mean they are right. Clearly both sides of any issue are subject to confirmation bias. The older I get, the less confident I get about my views. That's healthy.
Ad hominum attacks are a disservice to both sides; calling someone a crank denier is just as bad as accusing someone of being a scare-monger. Either way, it's an attempt to bully the other side.
Here is something from the original article to which I linked that has not yet been debunked on these pages:
The conclusion—taking the best observational estimates of the change in decadal-average global temperature between 1871-80 and 2002-11, and of the corresponding changes in forcing and ocean heat uptake—is this: A doubling of CO2 will lead to a warming of 1.6°-1.7°C (2.9°-3.1°F).
This is much lower than the IPCC's current best estimate, 3°C (5.4°F).
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- rickyp
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20 Dec 2012, 8:46 am
I believe that the response to Ridley I linked, specifically challenge this assertion
taking the best observational estimates of the change in decadal-average global temperature between 1871-80 and 2002-11
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They say that Ridley is relying on published papers that used the available data wrongly (inaccurately?). And which were discredited years ago.
Most of the science on warming is that predictions were actually too low.That we're warming faster than many predicted.
http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2 ... ected.htmlMy biggest worry is the expansion of energy in the ocean. Waves are a result of energy moving through water, and as the oceans warm, and expand, the oceans contain more energy. Waves get bigger. Storm surges get bigger...
Bluntly, occurrences like the recent storm damage in New Jersey and New York will become more frequent. If storm damage like that occurs every 6 or 7 years ... the economy of the area will fall apart. Migration will occur as businesses start giving up rebuilding. Especially if the insurance industry abandons the area.
For insight, read The Wave. Also great insight into surfers who surf 100 foot waves...
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- Doctor Fate
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20 Dec 2012, 8:56 am
Ray Jay wrote:freeman2 wrote:A financial expert talks to one scientist and overturns the work and beliefs of thousands of scientists? Meanwhile, Greenland melts...
Your bias shows. Here's Matt Ridley's bio on Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Wh ... unt_RidleyMatt Ridley (Matthew White, 5th Viscount Ridley), FRSL, FMedSci, DL (born 7 February 1958), is a British scientist, journalist and author.[1] He also is a former Chairman of Northern Rock.[2] He has written several science books including The Red Queen (1994), Genome (1999) and The Rational Optimist: How Prosperity Evolves (2010). Ridley has been short-listed twice for the Samuel Johnson Prize for non-fiction.[3] In 2011, he won the Hayek Prize, which "honors the book published within the past two years that best reflects Hayek’s vision of economic and individual liberty."[4] Ridley also gave the Angus Millar Lecture on "scientific heresy" at the RSA in 2011[5] and his TED.com talk on "when ideas have sex" has been viewed 1.86 million times.[6] He was recently elected a member of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences,[7] and won the Julian Simon award in March 2012.[8]
And, it's not Ridley's opinion we're talking about. He's been speaking with one of the IPCC report's reviewers. Here's something authored by
Ridley's source, Nic Lewis:I consider the most significant – but largely overlooked – revelation to be the substantial reduction since AR4 in estimates of aerosol forcing and uncertainty therein. This reduction has major implications for equilibrium climate sensitivity (ECS). ECS can be estimated using a heat balance approach – comparing the change in global temperature between two periods with the corresponding change in forcing, net of the change in global radiative imbalance. That imbalance is very largely represented by ocean heat uptake (OHU).
Since the time of AR4, neither global mean temperature nor OHU have increased, while the IPCC’s own estimate of the post-1750 change in forcing net of OHU has increased by over 60%. In these circumstances, it is extraordinary that the IPCC can leave its central estimate and ‘likely’ range for ECS unchanged.
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- Ray Jay
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20 Dec 2012, 9:08 am
Ricky:
I believe that the response to Ridley I linked, specifically challenge this assertion
taking the best observational estimates of the change in decadal-average global temperature between 1871-80 and 2002-11
,
As far as I can tell you are saying that a website from May 2010 is debunking a report on data that was collected in 2011. Perhaps we can just take the time machine forward to 2030 and know for sure what's going to happen.
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- Doctor Fate
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20 Dec 2012, 9:37 am
I don't think isolated situations--water levels of rivers, for example--should be confused as evidence:
Russia is enduring its harshest winter in over 70 years, with temperatures plunging as low as -50 degrees Celsius. Dozens of people have already died, and almost 150 have been hospitalized.
The country has not witnessed such a long cold spell since 1938, meteorologists said, with temperatures 10 to 15 degrees lower than the seasonal norm all over Russia.
Across the country, 45 people have died due to the cold, and 266 have been taken to hospitals. In total, 542 people were injured due to the freezing temperatures, RIA Novosti reported.
The Moscow region saw temperatures of -17 to -18 degrees Celsius on Wednesday, and the record cold temperatures are expected to linger for at least three more days. Thermometers in Siberia touched -50 degrees Celsius, which is also abnormal for December.
That's not evidence either, just a contrast with the levels of the Missouri river.