ray

Ricky, I'm talking about the tunnels from Gaza to Israel while you are talking about tunnels between Gaza and Egypt. Please read more carefully

The article is about ALL of the tunnels...
From the quoted content:

Incidentally, one such “terror tunnel” made its way onto cameras yesterday when Hamas fighters filmed their infiltration of the Nahal Oz military base in southern Israel.

also from the article but not pull quoted before

Lately, however, new tunnels have been uncovered in the northern Gaza Strip that are being used in the defense of Palestine. As part of the Israeli military’s egregious public relations campaign, Israel has officially dubbed them “terror tunnels,” carrying absolutely no context whatsoever.

ray

I don't know what they are fighting for, but it certainly isn't for themselves

Certainly? How can you be sure?

They are human beings who share the same aspirations for their children and themselves that Israelis do. That all of us do. ... Those that haven't been permanently embittered by loss inflicted upon them by the IDF also express a desire for a just peace...
They haven't really been offered that opportunity by Israel, or been lead effectively by theri own leaders.
But if you don't understand them enough to know what they are fighting for ... how are you able to pass judgement on them so completely?

Ricky, are you being purposefully obtuse as it relates to the tunnels? This is my original statement back on page 1

When we all talked about this 2 or 4 years ago, Ricky complained that the Israelis weren't letting cement into Gaza and they needed to build homes. I showed stats about how much cement gets into Gaza. Now we understand the discrepancy. Long and deep tunnels (to the Israeli side with only one purpose: terror) require a lot of cement.

The tunnels from Gaza to Israel have no commercial purpose. They are tunnels of terror. The Palestinians wanted to infiltrate into Israel to either kill innocents who live nearby or take soldiers as hostage.

I know your brain will zing zing zing to somewhat related topics, but just on this point are you saying that these are tunnels of commerce or tunnels of defense or what? What was the purpose of these tunnels? That is a key point because it is the reason why Israel expanded its ground campaign. The tunnels were large; they were numerous, and they were dangerous. And the Israelis took them out. Would any country facing this same danger have done differently?

I'm being as polite as possible here ...

By the way, some of the things the US did were probably questionable. But wars tend to have a progression where there are fewer and fewer restrictions on permissible conduct as time goes on (and casualties rise)They become existential fights for survival and anything that helps your side win and/or harms the other side becomes mandatory. So I think our actions have to be looked at on that context and also that it would catastrophic for the world if we had lost. It's like when people blame the French and British for the Treaty of Versailles , alleging it caused WW II. Like it was feasible for the French (after losing a million dead and a destroyed generation) to have refrained from demanding Alsace-Lorraine back (taken from them by Germany in 1870)and for the French and British (just under a million dead) to not to have asked for a war indemnity (Germany demanded a huge one from France in 1870 after only a 6 week war). And Germany imposed a much harder treaty on Russia in early 1918 (and based on historical documents would have demanded Belgium and a weakened France)...Context matters when assessing actions...

ray

Ricky, are you being purposefully obtuse as it relates to the tunnels?

No. You made your point about the original tunnels on the Egyptian border. The sources I've read and quoted here said that tunnels in other parts of Gaza were also used for smuggling as well as for attacks into Israel.
You seem to be focussed on their military purpose only. And as much as that is what they end up being used for the IDF has every right to destroy them.
However, i notice you use the "tunnels of terror" label like a truism. As if they were designed and used to specifically attack civilians.
I don't suppose you can actuallly find reported instances where civilians were attacked from the tunnels?
The Palestian I've quoted says this

While the Israeli government continues to purport the idea that the tunnels are meant to target thousands of Israelis, we are left with the very obvious: every single military assault carried out by Palestinian fighters that has used an infiltrating tunnel has only ever targeted Israeli soldiers. In other words, armed tunnel activity is targeting armed and active combatants, not civilians or noncombatants

Would it be its fair to call IDF planes "planes of terror" because they end up killing children when they purport to be carefully targeting missile sites?
How is it that is the use of poorly targeted missiles (lets remember how ineffective the Hamas rockets and mortars have actually been, especially since the use of the Iron Dome) justify collateral damage to the extent that innocents are being slaughtered in Gaza . But the damage done to Gaa by the long term blockade of Gaza isn't considered a sufficient motivation to justify the resistance by Gazans?
The only difference is your point of view.

Israel remains the super power in the region. if they wanted to raise up the palestinians instead of every so often destroying large swaths of homes and infrastructure .... they might find a way to a just peace in the region. But they don't really want a just peace Ray.
Thats why the tunnels are "terror tunnels". Its about selling the war.
You've bought.

Ricky:

ray


Ricky, are you being purposefully obtuse as it relates to the tunnels?

No. You made your point about the original tunnels on the Egyptian border.

Idiot, I am talking about the tunnels from Gaza into Israel. Do you not understand that?

You seem to be focussed on their military purpose only. And as much as that is what they end up being used for the IDF has every right to destroy them.

Yes I am and yes they do. Whether those tunnels into Israel are being used to kill or kidnap soldiers or to kidnap civilians, Israel has every right to destroy them. Yep 100% the right to destroy them. It is illegal to build secret tunnels into other countries. I highly recommend that you don't try that anywhere in the world.

Ricky:

However, i notice you use the "tunnels of terror" label like a truism. As if they were designed and used to specifically attack civilians.
I don't suppose you can actuallly find reported instances where civilians were attacked from the tunnels?
The Palestian I've quoted says this

While the Israeli government continues to purport the idea that the tunnels are meant to target thousands of Israelis, we are left with the very obvious: every single military assault carried out by Palestinian fighters that has used an infiltrating tunnel has only ever targeted Israeli soldiers. In other words, armed tunnel activity is targeting armed and active combatants, not civilians or noncombatants

Oh, I see the point you are making. You are saying that the tunnels may be are part of a war effort as opposed to targeting civilians. Maybe. I suspect that the Gazans would be satisfied with either objective. Whatever. That in no way changes the fact that the Israelis had every right to get rid of the tunnels. By the way, here's some interesting info on the tunnels:

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/origina ... -war.html#

As the cease fire breaks down, and as I read what people on the American continent tell me all Gazans think, here's an Israeli Jew on what Israel is losing...

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/08/08/opini ... ?c=&page=2

By the way. Israel does have a right to protect itself and its citizens. Gaza or the Palestinian Authority surely also has that same right. And also, war is pretty nasty and sometimes innocents get hurt. Saying all that does not excuse indiscriminate fire, or badly aimed fire. Hamas' actions, legitimate or criminal do not justify any and all action by Israel (and vice versa).

The depressing things about this situation for me are:

It is part of a repeated pattern that is getting worse, not better.

Neither side's leaders seem willing to compromise, and they are becoming more entrenched.

The people caught in the middle are being blamed for it.

The supporters of one side or the other are slipping into the habits of repeating slogans as if they are facts and dehumanising the others.

Neither side are saints, and I am getting tired of Israeli (and Israel-cheerleading) assertions of moral superiority at a time that hundreds of women and children are dying and many more are imjured, homeless, traumatised.

Oh, bbauska, Gaza may perhaps be able to build and operate a desalination plant. It would need a lot of material (much of which cannot be imported due to the Israeli blockade), and a lot of energy (the main power station has been struck by the IDF). Yet again a simple throwaway solution that belies the detailed reality.

Ricky, I'm sorry that I call you an idiot. I think I am within my rights to call you incredibly annoying.

Here's some independent journalist footage of how Hamas fires rockets in the midst of population centers. Are the Israelis within their rights to try to take out these rockets?

http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/ndtv- ... ets-571033

danivon

Oh, bbauska, Gaza may perhaps be able to build and operate a desalination plant. It would need a lot of material (much of which cannot be imported due to the Israeli blockade), and a lot of energy (the main power station has been struck by the IDF). Yet again a simple throwaway solution that belies the detailed reality.

You could also have noted that the water problems for Palestinians in the West Bank can't be solved by desalination plants. Partly because they don't have the freedom to construct one in their limited and poorly connected jurisidcitions. Partly because the Dead Sea would be a very poor source of salinated water, since it is super salinated and shrinking...

ray

Oh, I see the point you are making. You are saying that the tunnels may be are part of a war effort as opposed to targeting civilians. Maybe. I suspect that the Gazans would be satisfied with either objective. Whatever. That in no way changes the fact that the Israelis had every right to get rid of the tunnels. By the way, here's some interesting info on the tunnels:

But lets keep calling them "terror tunnels" and buying into the notion that Gazans only purpose for them is to crawl out of them and kidnap innocent Israelis. They never have. Though they have kidnapped one IDF member and attacked IDF forces.
As a weapon they've been only moderately more successful than the Hamas Rocketing and mortaring... but it serves the purpose to inflate the actual affect . And to define the purpose of the tunnels as "terror".


The Isrealis will continue to win the public relations battle as long as western media and people continue to accept Israelis propoganda without critical thinking.
Why shouldn't the Gazans have a right to defend their interests? The blockade is both illegal (under international law) and amounts to collective punishment of all Gazans. Once one looks at the suffering that the blockade has caused, its easy to understand why Gazans support anything that sttrikes out at those causing the hardship.
All that the IDF has done is create embittered people who's freinds and family have suffered loss of life or homes, and who will return to seeking revenge in the future.
Even though they have every right to go after rockets and tunnels .... it doesn't mean they should.
It hasn't worked in the past, It isn't happening now. And the future of the conflict remains as constant repetition.
So try something else. Try treating the Palestinians as equals and treating each of their citizens as having equal value to an Israelis. The IDF would nver bomb a school in which Israelis children were sheltering even if there were Arab missiles and operatives hiding in the same school.
They should work towards helping raise them up as neighbors.
That this never happens, is on the Israelis.

Ricky:

But lets keep calling them "terror tunnels" and buying into the notion that Gazans only purpose for them is to crawl out of them and kidnap innocent Israelis. They never have. Though they have kidnapped one IDF member and attacked IDF forces.
As a weapon they've been only moderately more successful than the Hamas Rocketing and mortaring... but it serves the purpose to inflate the actual affect . And to define the purpose of the tunnels as "terror".

The only reason they haven't been successful with the tunnels is that the Israelis were lucky and then diligent in removing them. Terrorists weren't successful with shoe bombing, but they sure did try. Are you advising that the Israelis wait until a tactic is successful before they try to neutralize it. That doesn't strike me as good government. If the US knew about 9/11 and took out Bin Laden and the capability before it happened, would you be complaining about that too?

Ricky:

Once one looks at the suffering that the blockade has caused, its easy to understand why Gazans support anything that sttrikes out at those causing the hardship.

I think that we would all prefer a different reality, but fundamentally I don't see Israel having many options as it relates to Gaza. (I do think they can create a different reality on the WB.)

Hamas calls for the elimination of Israel and all Jews. They openly seek rockets and other weapons from Iran, Syria, and others. Obviously sometimes they are successful. Their weapons continue to get better as it relates to range and accuracy. Israel has no choice but to blockade Gaza as it relates to weaponry. Concrete can be used for housing, but it can also be used for tunnels.

Israel isn't normally blockading food and water from arriving in Gaza. However, the root cause of the immediate conflict is that Egypt closed down trade with Hamas since ousting the Muslim Brotherhood. That's an Egyptian blockade. (Why doesn't Hamas try sending rockets their way and we can all debate the humanitarian response by the Egyptians?)

You talk about the Palestinians learning to hate Israel and for the cycle to repeat. I think you are right. What are the Israelis learning? They are learning that the 2 state solution will result in endless war. Gaza is a separate state. Blockade or not, their purpose is to attack Israel. What would a separate West Bank state look like?

Even today Israel agreed to abide by the cease fire and Hamas said no and started sending more rockets. My understanding is that they had 9,000 total; 3,000 have been fired; 3,000 have been destroyed by Israel, and 3,000 are still there. When they fire these 3,000 rockets from nearby apartment buildings, and school and Mosques, should the Israelis just let that happen? Should they lift the blockade so that Hamas can get more rockets? Should they just wait till more Israeli civilians die before they respond?

ray

The only reason they haven't been successful with the tunnels is that the Israelis were lucky and then diligent in removing them.

http://www.debka.com/article/24160/IDF- ... -declared-

Indeed. they forced a three KM buffer zone and destroyed a lot of agricultural land in Gaza as a result.
And Gaza, fenced in with security fences, is surrounded by IDF forces, not centres of population. So anyone coming out of the tunnels on the Israelis side of the fences, first has to go through military forces. Handy if you are targeting the IDF. Not so, if you are targeting civilians.
The notion that the tunnels hold a significanrt terror threat to civilians is not supported by reality.

On the other hand, tunnels in Gaza are often bombed from Israelis aircraft with significant collateral damage to Gazan civilians.

I've always believed that the reason groups like Hamas call for things like death to all Jews (or, certainly, the only reason they're able to garner significant support among the populace) is becuse Gazans are being occupied/blockaded. The militant Islamic groups in the Middle East who want to destroy the West are a direct result of the foreign policy of the Western superpowers. If we stopped sticking fingers in everyone's pie, you think all the young Arab kids would still be signing up to give their lives for jihad? The recruiting slogans would likely start to fall on deaf ears.

Hamas' call for the end of Israel and all Jews is not at all like the Nazi platform. Hamas at least is not acting in a completely unprovoked manner.

ray

They are learning that the 2 state solution will result in endless war. Gaza is a separate state

.
Palestine is not a state.
Gaza is a ghetto.
The West Bank a series of Ghettos.
A just peace between equal states is not Israels aim. The current government wants a humiliated and demoralized populace to accept whatever scraps that Israel is willing to provide them.
There are historical parallels where this has been accomplished by one race prevailing over another.
Usually where demographics were also in favor of the dominant race. Not in this case.

In order to prevail, its important that Israel win the propoganda war and dehumanize the Palestinians in the eyes of global media. Because people who are less than human don't deserve the dignity of self determination and true statehood. TThats tougher to accomplish in todays media landscape, but they do pretty well in the US.
I don't think this Israelis plan is a solution.
That Gazans continue to support the mad men of Hamas shows that the policy of humiliation and indignty is a powerful motivator in and of itself.
I think the Palestinian conflict will continue as long as whats on offer from Israel is what it is ... Why should the Palestinians settle ?