geojanes wrote:

Doctor Fate wrote:This is not just a "crisis" of the moment. It is an existential threat to the sovereignty of our country. If not dealt with, all politics aside, the result will be catastrophic.

This seems to be a little bit hyperbolic. Can you explain how these children portend impending catastrophe?

Because there is NO plan to stop it, no plan to stop future family "reunifications, and no plan to do anything other than keep the red carpet out. Eventually, we will have millions of folks on welfare and drawing subsidies on the ACA plan.

Billions, tens of billions, hundreds of billions in costs.

And why? Because the POTUS does not care.

Doctor Fate wrote:Excellent!

Then, let's just admit it's hopeless and deport by any means necessary all illegal aliens.

Because you live in false-dichotomy land, clearly. You can't completely close the border, but you can increase the security and checking. It won't be cheap.

Massively increasing deportation of illegal immigrants also isn't cheap. It sounds cheap in a soundbite, but really, it takes people, infrastructure...

Assuming that 'by any means necessary' does not mean 'at any cost, I don't care about the deficit any more',

If that's too much to do, then let's ensure they receive no benefits, cannot have anchor babies (by passing a law that says one parent must be an American citizen), and cannot work. They will, in the legendary words of Romney, "self-deport."

Sure. That is all that could possibly happen. None will get work anyway. None will be able to claim benefits illegally. None will resort to crime. They will all meekly wander back from whence they came, after spending loads of time and money to get to the 'Land of Opportunity'.

While you are at it, why not make such changes retro-active. Back to 1621 could do it.

It is an existential threat to the sovereignty of our country.

Nativism, nationalism, always such positive movements that never overstate a problem in order to blame foreign immigration for the woes of a country. And they never, ever, encourage violence or bigotry or anything like that.

danivon wrote:Sure. That is all that could possibly happen. None will get work anyway. None will be able to claim benefits illegally. None will resort to crime. They will all meekly wander back from whence they came, after spending loads of time and money to get to the 'Land of Opportunity'. Because you live in false-dichotomy land, clearly.

Because you live in false-dichotomy land, clearly.

It's either the "Land of Opportunity," where anyone in the world, for any reason and with any health condition, can come and get themselves on welfare. With our welfare state, the ACA, and porous borders, what could go wrong? It's not like that will be expensive or anything.

While you are at it, why not make such changes retro-active. Back to 1621 could do it.

Thank you, Howard Zinn.

It is an existential threat to the sovereignty of our country.

Nativism, nationalism, always such positive movements that never overstate a problem in order to blame foreign immigration for the woes of a country. And they never, ever, encourage violence or bigotry or anything like that.

Listen, Mr. Holier than Anyone, it's pretty simple: we should have more legal migration, but we cannot afford uncontrolled, free as you please, illegal immigration.

And, you've got a useless President who wants to blame the situation on a lack of comprehensive immigration reform (not the issue) instead of actually doing something.

fate

And, you've got a useless President who wants to blame the situation on a lack of comprehensive immigration reform (not the issue) instead of actually doing something

He's being called "lawless" and yet he's following the 2008 law, passed unanimously, under a different President with many of his critics voting to pass the law.
He's being sued by Boehner and others for using executive actions, so who's going to be happy if he uses executive actions to mitigate this problem?
And he doesn't have the ability to change the law, only Congress does. And there any kind of immigration is hopelessly mired in gridlock.

Fate

I was just listening to our local Sheriff talk about the border issue ..
It's also important to think about who is actually controlling the immigration to the US: the drug cartels. They are, in his words, multi-billion dollar corporations with satellite communications and sophisticated monitoring so that they know where the border agents are. He says they've smuggled Al Qaida members into the US.

Where is it you live again? And how is it that your local sherrif has all this intelligence? I mean if he has access to this kind of information (especially the Al Qaida smuggling) with the evidence to back it up why is he just "your local sherrif"?
Was he an elected sherrif?

rickyp wrote:fate

And, you've got a useless President who wants to blame the situation on a lack of comprehensive immigration reform (not the issue) instead of actually doing something

He's being called "lawless" and yet he's following the 2008 law, passed unanimously, under a different President with many of his critics voting to pass the law.

Right, because the intent of that law has NOTHING to do with what is happening. Furthermore, he's proposing NOTHING but making those who have violated the law more comfortable.

He's being sued by Boehner and others for using executive actions, so who's going to be happy if he uses executive actions to mitigate this problem?

Everyone except Valerie Jarrett and his base.

He's not being sued for executive action, but for taking actions that are beyond what the Constitution permits. In this case, he could do a number of things, even without touching the Wilberforce law. He's doing nothing.

And he doesn't have the ability to change the law, only Congress does.

So, when he changes the ACA approx. 30 times, what is up with that?

And there any kind of immigration is hopelessly mired in gridlock.

False. This law could be fixed in an afternoon--if a solution was wanted by the President.

Fate

I was just listening to our local Sheriff talk about the border issue ..
It's also important to think about who is actually controlling the immigration to the US: the drug cartels. They are, in his words, multi-billion dollar corporations with satellite communications and sophisticated monitoring so that they know where the border agents are. He says they've smuggled Al Qaida members into the US.

Where is it you live again? And how is it that your local sherrif has all this intelligence?

Oh brother.

This is the way law enforcement works. They talk to each other. I live in MA. He goes to conferences. He mentioned going to DC for such an event. He also mentioned one in Texas.

I mean if he has access to this kind of information (especially the Al Qaida smuggling) with the evidence to back it up why is he just "your local sherrif"?
Was he an elected sherrif?

Yes, he's elected. And, it's "sheriff."

Now, think about it (that's where you let your mind focus on an event): why would a man who runs the jails know about crime and criminals?

Oh. Yeah.

He said MS-13 inmates are the only ones he has in custody that other facilities will not take (when they need to be transferred for one reason or another. They are too violent. And, our border is open to them.

Doctor Fate wrote:

geojanes wrote:

Doctor Fate wrote:This is not just a "crisis" of the moment. It is an existential threat to the sovereignty of our country. If not dealt with, all politics aside, the result will be catastrophic.

This seems to be a little bit hyperbolic. Can you explain how these children portend impending catastrophe?

Because there is NO plan to stop it, no plan to stop future family "reunifications, and no plan to do anything other than keep the red carpet out. Eventually, we will have millions of folks on welfare and drawing subsidies on the ACA plan.

I don't think you did a very good job of explaining the "existential threat to the sovereignty of our country" and the pending catastrophe.

geojanes wrote:I don't think you did a very good job of explaining the "existential threat to the sovereignty of our country" and the pending catastrophe.

I don't believe we can afford to have a massive influx of unskilled, uneducated immigrants, entirely dependent upon a welfare state. I don't believe we can afford to have a border which is simple for Islamic terrorists, Mexican drug cartels, and Central American gangs to cross. If you think that's not a major problem, I'm not going to try and convince you. It's not like NYC would ever be the target of terrorists or gangs.

In all seriousness, I think we would all be concerned if large numbers of MS-13 and Al Qaeda were crossing the border or that illegal immigration levels were rising at unprecedented rates. And I am not unsympathetic to the argument that we should careful about accepting immigrants that (within 5 years at least) are certainly going to draw benefits. With regard to the children coming over that is still a relatively small number. You have provided no figures on MS-13, rise of illegal immigrants (which had been going down because of a lack of jobs but I have not checked recent estimates), on increases in pay-outs to immigrants of SSI, food stamps, etc), on MS-13, on drug cartels being able to cross,on Al Qaeda being able to cross with ease, etc. We can all believe what we want to believe, but facts, figures, evidence can (should at least) can circumscribe what is reasonable belief. Anti-immigration arguments based on anecdotal evidence or on worst-case scenarios tend to sound nativist, but not if you have concrete numbers. Your arguments about the IRS have been largely on point (and restrained). Why not do the same here? And by the way, as I know you are aware, only legal immigrants can get benefits, so illegal immigrants does not tax our social welfare system (it may stress education, emergency rooms, and possibly the criminal justice system, however) Maybe you're assuming amnesty, but I doubt Republicans will accede to that

Doctor Fate wrote:

geojanes wrote:I don't think you did a very good job of explaining the "existential threat to the sovereignty of our country" and the pending catastrophe.

I don't believe we can afford to have a massive influx of unskilled, uneducated immigrants, entirely dependent upon a welfare state. I don't believe we can afford to have a border which is simple for Islamic terrorists, Mexican drug cartels, and Central American gangs to cross. If you think that's not a major problem, I'm not going to try and convince you. It's not like NYC would ever be the target of terrorists or gangs.

You're making huge leaps. There is a problem with these kids, and it's a big problem, tragic and upsetting. But it's a mile away from what you're worrying about.

freeman3 wrote:In all seriousness, I think we would all be concerned if large numbers of MS-13 and Al Qaeda were crossing the border or that illegal immigration levels were rising at unprecedented rates.

This is minimization writ large. It doesn't take many MS-13 to do a lot of damage. They are not just "violent," but "EXCESSIVELY violent."

This does a decent job of explaining it. And, as noted at the end of the article: "In October 2012 US Treasury Department announced a freeze on American-owned assets controlled by the organization and listed MS-13 as a Transnational Criminal Organization."

And I am not unsympathetic to the argument that we should careful about accepting immigrants that (within 5 years at least) are certainly going to draw benefits. With regard to the children coming over that is still a relatively small number.

Said to be 150K in the near future. Furthermore, they have families who will eventually join them.

We have 10-20M illegal immigrants here now. How many are on the dole? We don't know because of fraud--and because many locales don't care.

You have provided no figures on MS-13, rise of illegal immigrants (which had been going down because of a lack of jobs but I have not checked recent estimates), on increases in pay-outs to immigrants of SSI, food stamps, etc), on MS-13, on drug cartels being able to cross,on Al Qaeda being able to cross with ease, etc. We can all believe what we want to believe, but facts, figures, evidence can (should at least) can circumscribe what is reasonable belief.

Here's a fact: President Obama has asked for $3.7B to deal with the 50K at the border now. Some of that money will be used to rebut "disinformation" being spread now that kids get to stay here if they get here. Funny thing is: they do, so it's not "disinformation."

He has presented no plan to stop what is going on . . . so what will stop it?

Anti-immigration arguments based on anecdotal evidence or on worst-case scenarios tend to sound nativist, but not if you have concrete numbers. Your arguments about the IRS have been largely on point (and restrained). Why not do the same here? And by the way, as I know you are aware, only legal immigrants can get benefits, so illegal immigrants does not tax our social welfare system (it may stress education, emergency rooms, and possibly the criminal justice system, however) Maybe you're assuming amnesty, but I doubt Republicans will accede to that

Really? Only legal immigrants can get benefits? So, if I show some cases where illegals do, then what?

And, yes, I am assuming amnesty. I think President Jarrett is determined to deliver that.

Doctor Fate wrote:Really? Only legal immigrants can get benefits? So, if I show some cases where illegals do, then what?

And, yes, I am assuming amnesty. I think President Jarrett is determined to deliver that.

The world in which we live is, apparently, so completely different. My experience is that as a group, immigrants, regardless of race, class, education, or status, are the hardest working group of people in the country. Period. Worrying that they'll drain some barely existent welfare state is to me and my experience, crazy talk. As a group, they work crazy, crazy hard; harder than any of us wasting our time posting here.

As a nation, we think it's good policy to give a green card to investors who invest at least $500,000 in the USA. Yes, you can buy legal residence in this country for cold hard cash. Yet some farmers find it difficult to get people to bring in their crops. Our immigration system is crazy, no doubt, but, geez, Dr. Fate, from my perspective your problems are over there in left field, and have little to do with the country in which I live.

And who's President Jarrett?

geojanes wrote:

Doctor Fate wrote:Really? Only legal immigrants can get benefits? So, if I show some cases where illegals do, then what?

And, yes, I am assuming amnesty. I think President Jarrett is determined to deliver that.

The world in which we live is, apparently, so completely different. My experience is that as a group, immigrants, regardless of race, class, education, or status, are the hardest working group of people in the country. Period. Worrying that they'll drain some barely existent welfare state is to me and my experience, crazy talk. As a group, they work crazy, crazy hard; harder than any of us wasting our time posting here.

That's because you live in some kind of bubble. Go to your local county jail. See how many of the inmates are from out of the country. You might be surprised. This is old, but I wasn't going to spend much time looking.

In Suffolk County, Levy estimates 10 to 15 percent of the jail population is undocumented immigrants. He says that translates to $10.5 million dollars a year in spending, money that must be raised in local property taxes. And now a federal program that reimburses a fraction of this spending faces possible cuts.

From an LA County Supervisor (the County is an important level of government in CA):

The argument that illegals contribute more than they receive in government services is nonsense Illegal immigration has had a catastrophic economic impact on Los Angeles County Our bankrupt health care delivery system has become an HMO for the world and criminal illegal aliens are overwhelming our criminal justice system

Within this County’s health care delivery system, illegals are being treated at a cost of nearly $500 million dollars a year. The cost alone to our Criminal Justice system for the 25 percent of the illegals that up the jail population exceeds 550 million dollars a year. Additionally, illegals collect over $260million in CALWORKS payments and $360 million in food stamp allocations These costs alone exceed one billion dollars annually – excluding the cost of education.

Nearly 100,000 children of 60,000 undocumented parents receive aid – for a total of 160,000 If incorporated into a city, it would be the 6th largest city in Los Angeles county Also, one in fifteen people in California is an illegal immigrant – costing our State $3 billion dollars annually.

The failure to control our borders and the lack of reimbursement from the state and federal government is breaking the back of local government These costs have impacted the economy, the social fiber and the effective operation of our County.”

This article is about extended detentions, but it contains this nugget:

Of the Los Angeles County jail population, around 14 percent - or roughly 2,100 people on any given day - are subject to Immigration and Customs Enforcement holds, according to the ACLU of Southern California, which was also involved in the lawsuit.

One out of every seven inmates in LA County jails has an ICE hold.

Some immigrants are hardworking. Great. Those who came here legally are awesome! I welcome them!

We need more legal, hardworking immigrants.

That's not the issue. The issue is who determines who comes here: the United States or the drug cartels of Mexico? Right now, they do.

As a nation, we think it's good policy to give a green card to investors who invest at least $500,000 in the USA. Yes, you can buy legal residence in this country for cold hard cash. Yet some farmers find it difficult to get people to bring in their crops. Our immigration system is crazy, no doubt, but, geez, Dr. Fate, from my perspective your problems are over there in left field, and have little to do with the country in which I live.

That's because you live in a country that is quite different than the rest of America.

And who's President Jarrett?

President Obama's right hand and guide.

fate

Really? Only legal immigrants can get benefits? So, if I show some cases where illegals do, then what?

Sure. They come to get welfare...

Immigrants come here to get "welfare"
Immigrants come to work and to reunite with family members.
Immigrant labor-force participation is consistently higher than native-born, and immigrant workers make up a larger share of the U.S. labor force (12.4%) than they do the U.S. population (11.5%). Moreover, the ratio between immigrant use of public benefits and the amount of taxes they pay is consistently favorable to the U.S., unless the “study” was undertaken by an anti-immigrant group. In one estimate, immigrants earn about $240 billion a year, pay about $90 billion a year in taxes, and use about $5 billion in public benefits. In another cut of the data, immigrant tax payments total $20 to $30 billion more than the amount of government services they use.[4]
Since the welfare reform of 1996, when limits were implemented cutting off benefits to two years consecutively or five years cumulatively, this is a bogus accusation.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Myths_and_ ... ted_States

rickyp wrote:fate

Really? Only legal immigrants can get benefits? So, if I show some cases where illegals do, then what?

Sure. They come to get welfare...

Immigrants come here to get "welfare"
Immigrants come to work and to reunite with family members.
Immigrant labor-force participation is consistently higher than native-born, and immigrant workers make up a larger share of the U.S. labor force (12.4%) than they do the U.S. population (11.5%). Moreover, the ratio between immigrant use of public benefits and the amount of taxes they pay is consistently favorable to the U.S., unless the “study” was undertaken by an anti-immigrant group. In one estimate, immigrants earn about $240 billion a year, pay about $90 billion a year in taxes, and use about $5 billion in public benefits. In another cut of the data, immigrant tax payments total $20 to $30 billion more than the amount of government services they use.[4]
Since the welfare reform of 1996, when limits were implemented cutting off benefits to two years consecutively or five years cumulatively, this is a bogus accusation.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Myths_and_ ... ted_States

Thanks for that pseudo-evidence!

First of all, is that only illegal immigrants?

Second, you do know this is a slanted argument, right? No "costs" associated with law enforcement, Social Security fraud, overcrowded schools, etc.?

Third, I asked "Only legal immigrants can get benefits? So, if I show some cases where illegals do, then what?"

So, your response is . . . not a response.

But, thanks for playing!

I can show evidence of illegals getting housing assistance from the county we are in. I will not, however, do that due to security information of the people involved. Suffice it to say, that there are illegals getting housing assistance.

I know this area. It is my business.