and be 100% sure they could avoid loss of life, indeed any harm, befalling the protesters...

danivon wrote:You know what? I didn't read much about this other than the headlines and RJ's post - I spent more time this past few days looking at stuff relating to the UK Budget.

But there are some aspects that I think should be borne in mind : source - http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/ma ... lla-deaths

1) Whatever RJ's opinion, or Netanyahu's, the apology was not for the blockade, or even for boarding the ship, but for mistakes made in the operation:

It [a statement from Netanyahu's office] added:"The prime minister made it clear that the tragic results regarding the Mavi Marmara were unintentional, and that Israel expresses regret over injuries and loss of life. In light of the Israeli investigation into the incident, which pointed out several operational errors, Netanyahu apologised to the Turkish people for any errors that could have led to loss of life and agreed to complete the agreement on compensation."

As I had suggested, but this was mere guesswork on my part so I take no credit or kudos, the Israeli government itself investigated the incident and identified failings. So the apology is not Netanyahu coming around to Erdogan's view, it's him expressing the already established Israeli view.

2) This wasn't just about Israel making an apology (and paying compensation), it was about the Turkish President's reaction afterwards:

Reconciliation talks ran into trouble recently when Erdogan called Zionism a "crime against humanity" and compared it to fascism. But on Friday, a senior US official, briefing journalists on the flight from Tel Aviv to Amman, said brokering the deal become possible after Erdogan backtracked on those comments.

In an interview with a Danish paper this week, Erdogan did not retract his words but said they had been misinterpreted.

Netanyahu told Erdogan "he had seen his interview in a Danish newspaper and that he, Netanyahu, appreciated those comments", the US official said.

Perhaps what Obama did was not so much get Netanyahu to apologise in return for unspecified credit from the US, but got Erdogan to mollify his tone to allow Israel to apologise with some face.

"not for the blockade, or even for boarding the ship, but for mistakes made in the operation"

bbauska wrote:Danivon,
Would you have had a problem is the scenario went like this:
Israel meets vessel in international waters
Israel attempts peaceful resolution and asks vessel to turn back
Israel follows vessel into 12 mile limit and asks for vessel to halt and be boarded peacebly
Barring a peaceful boarding, Israel disables vessel via screw fouling, warning shots
Israel tows disable vessel to port of Haifa, and inspects vessel for contraband
Israel releases vessel and crew after any contraband is found and confiscated

As to a person violating the laws of another country, it is not the country whose laws are being violated responsibility to check with the crew member's nation.

Does Iran need to give back the pastor who was preaching Christianity? No, the guy went to another nation to violate that nation's laws. Roll the dice, and see what happens. Sometimes you roll snake eyes...

how would you describe the Turkish government for its treatment of the Armenians during WWI and its subsequent comments on the subject?

Ray Jay wrote:This is the conversation I was hoping to have. There is a lot of face saving here, and the drama is still unfolding. The Turkish prime minister did refer to Zionism as a crime against humanity, and he hasn't taken back that comment post phone call. The comment deligitimizes the entire State of Israel. With friends like this, who needs enemies.

There are still Turkish court proceedings against the individual Israeli soldiers which the PM claims he cannot stop.

As it relates to Syria, this strikes me as more of a problem for Turkey and Jordan and Lebanon, and Iraq than it is for Israel. The Israel border is secure. Sure terrorist and/or failed states are not good things, but for the rest of Syria's neighbors, it could lead to more massive problems The Israelis can help the Turks more than the opposite. I'm not saying that the situation in Syria is good for Israel. Clearly it's bad; but it is worse for Turkey, Jordan, and Lebanon.

That's why I think there is more here than meets the eye. I wouldn't be surprised if Pollard is released after the dust settles a bit.

So, here's a quesiton. If Netanyahu's apology is as Danivon correctly describes:

"not for the blockade, or even for boarding the ship, but for mistakes made in the operation"

, why does the media describe it as if it is a full apology?

Ray Jay wrote:But when you are dealing with a bully, be careful about giving them ammunition. They may use it against you first chance they get. No doubt Netanyahu understands that. He got something for the admission is my suspicion.

I just don't think we should pretend that this is a regime like Canada

Mr. Netanyahu said the need to coordinate with Turkey on handling fallout from Syria's civil war was the main reason he dropped his refusal to apologize.

But another reason is emerging. Turkey's fast-growing economy is the lowest-cost export destination for energy discovered off the Israeli coast in recent years. Such a deal could result in a supply contract for as much as $4 billion a year, an Israeli analyst said.

Despite the broken ties, which led to a halt in Israeli defense-supply contracts with Turkey and a nose-dive in Israeli tourism to Turkey, commerce between the two countries has continued. Turkey has become an even more attractive destination in the wake of the Cyprus crisis, which is clouding plans for cooperation between Cyprus and Israel on exploration in Mediterranean offshore fields and the construction of a liquefied natural gas plant for export.

That makes the Israelis seem very quick, doesn't it?

You are equating the racist abuse of indigenous peoples with one specific interdiction on the high seas. I think you trivialize the former in doing so...