Crowds in many places can become unruly, and dangerous. Times Square in New York on New Years once had that reputation.

Dear Ms. Hinsliff, I am a Canadian professional who currently lives in the vicinity of Cologne. I am also a woman. Having lived in Canada most of my life, I have seen a multicultural model work successfully. I also consider myself to be left leaning, and myself come from a family of immigrants, therefore am highly empathetic to the immigrant experience.

Immediately after the sexual assaults on NYEs, I was relayed the details by a female acquaintance who was there. This young woman is a social worker and I have no reason to believe has any right leaning tendencies. Let me clarify a few details for you and your readers Ms. Hinsliff. These women were surrounded, in groups of 2 or 3, by men that overall are estimated to have numbered at about 1000, who my friend described as being of North African race. These men then proceeded to "grope" them as you so delicately state, by inserting their fingers into the women's vaginas and anuses. The women had "let's @#$! let's @#$!" and "whore" shouted at them. They were then robbed of their phones and their wallets. At least 2 women have come forward to date and filed complaints of rape.

This event sparked an outcry in the social media. The mainstream media were silent for days. The police initially reported that it was a peaceful night. The politicians were silent. The furor on social media continued. The female mayor of Cologne came forward and told young women that they needed to protect themselves by keeping strangers "at arm's length" (blame the victim). The public was told not to jump to conclusions about the ethnicity of the perpetrators. People here spoke about it privately and in hushed tones, less they be branded a "nazi" for asking the obvious, albeit unpleasant questions. A police report was leaked indicating that of the men who they rounded up, many did in fact have refugee or North African/Arab status. Dr. Merkel at long last made a worded public comment yesterday, 7 days after the event, but has yet to stand in front of her nation in an open press conference with a Q&A session (up until then the Germans got a few weakly worded weasel-word statements).

Ms. Hinsliff, a sign of intelligence is the ability to take new information, assimilate it, and, if required, to adjust ones thinking. One week ago I would never have believed that I would be put into a position to have to write what I am about to write now. However facts are facts, and the facts that are emerging show a culture that is out of line with our western values.

As a woman lacking the necessary physical strength to defend myself (pepper spray has apparently sold out in Germany), I am not interested in assuming the risk of having individuals with this sort of mentality around me, period. I have lived my entire life surrounded by people of all cultures and races, and have never ever even heard of a barbaric act like this, let alone spoken with someone who has experienced it first hand. Last night on a German talk show I heard an expert saying that in refugee centres, some of these men refuse to have their food given to them by a woman. They spoke of programs that could be implemented to change the attitudes of these men. I do not want to spend my tax dollars on rehabilitating these individuals. I would hope that the majority of them would not behave in this fashion, however it is a risk that I am personally unwilling to take and a slippery slope that their own brethren pushed them down by committing this horrifying, large scale, organized criminal act. I would prefer to spend those tax dollars setting up safe zones in their home countries and stabilizing the region so that they can be returned there as expeditiously as possible. Of course if they truly want to live in Europe and embrace our values, then they could apply through normal channels and be carefully screened. It pains me to have to write this, and I would never vote for a right leaning party or attend a right leaning demonstration, but this is completely unacceptable, and as a highly educated and very open-minded individual, I am no longer willing to embrace the naive position which I until a week ago held on this issue. There are enough other compelling issues in the western world where we need to invest our limited financial and human resources, without saddling ourselves with this.

I will reiterate, it is unfortunate that the deeds of 1000 bad men tarnish an entire group of individuals, but frankly, acts have consequences, and in the face of the mounting evidence, they need to be swift and decisive, unless Merkel wants a revolution on her hands.

If the Cologne Police had the force in place, with adequate direction, would this event ocurred? Doubtful?

Do young men in groups become dangerous, especially after heavy drinking? yes. Just about anywhere. It isn't a rare event caused by sexually repressive socialization. Its regular and occurs in places where honor and responsibility are top priorities and trained into men.
So don't accuse me of what aboutery... Justify why this particular incident is a result of inadequate socialization but the high incidence of rape in the US military isn't... (Or fr that matter college dorms, or spring break in Florida)

I agree that in the Middle East they do get away with behaviors that are less prevalent in other parts of the world. But as soon as young men understand that there are consequences for their behaviors most manage to reign in their base instincts.
If the Cologne police had prepared and responded correctly then there might not have been an incident.

When the rape crisis in the US military has been solved, then maybe we can think about this as a cultural problem and not just a problem endemic to drunken, irresponsible young men around the world.

Here's the thing. I strongly suspect that well publicized deportations of perpetrators of crimes like this will have an immediate effect on how immigrant men behave.

Classic whataboutery.

rickyp wrote:sass

Classic whataboutery.

I'll repeat. Its not whataboutery. Its perspective.

Justify why this particular incident is a result of inadequate socialization but the high incidence of rape in the US military isn't... (Or for that matter college dorms, or spring break in Florida) . Its easy to jump on an incident that seems to be primarily hateful Muslims. Their horrible behavior is making it difficult for most of the refugees and easy for the bigots.

Young men groups often behave this way, especially after drinking. Where society tolerates the behavior or fails to react ....the behavior becomes commonplace. (India for instance. US college campuses as well apparently).

You seem to think that Germany will tolerate the behavior. Or that the German government, legal system and police are unable to cope. As a result you seem to think that young Muslim refugees will act with impunity and repeat their behaviors. (I sad seem to think...so perhaps you could respond here..)
I doubt it very much. The laws are already changing and the Cologne police chief has already paid for his lack of preparation, poor response and cover up. This is unlikely to reoccur due to inadequate police preparation or response again.
Moreover, lets remember why young men make up the large part of the refugee population. They are there for 3 reasons.
1) to get them out of the reach of military and militia drafts, and keep them alive
2) because they have the greatest chance of surviving the rough conditions of the migration ; and importantly
3) they are there to establish a beach head and if possible bring over relatives at some point.
Imagine how their families react if they commit crimes and are deported after all the trouble of getting them there. Especially if they are deported for sexual assault. If you don't think this is going to be a factor in their future compliance ... why not?

The minority will not be able to change the massive Germany society in any significant way. German values and the way society works will not change. Those immigrants who cannot adapt to German values ad social norms may become problems. I doubt there will be the tolerance of rape culture that you suspect, and as they are deported compliance by the remaining will occur. Or the men will leave if there is any peace in their homeland.
I agree with you that there will be societal frictions and difficulties. The greater the attempt at assimilation, and the sooner these men can be put to work ...the better.
They represent a solution for something that has troubled demographers and German employers for some time. A Labor shortage.
http://www.dw.com/en/tapping-refugees-t ... a-18688541

So tell me Ricky, did anything like this ever happen in Times Square ?

I'll make it easy for you, rickyp: cite one incident in the military, NYC, or the American college of your choice, wherein young women were surrounded by hundreds of young men who then shouted they wanted to f*** the women, referred to them as "whores," and then forcibly probed and raped them

rThe third-floor hallway was about six feet wide and dimly lighted. The report said the corridor was extremely crowded on Friday and Saturday evenings. According to three witnesses, a sign was posted on the floor warning: "Gantlet--enter at your own risk."

The report said the gantlet appeared well organized even though most of the participants were drunk. When a woman appeared, a scout would shout "clear deck" if he considered her attractive enough to molest or "wave off" if he thought her too unattractive. The terms are drawn from aircraft carrier flight operations.

Many women reportedly were lured unwittingly into the gantlet by officers who steered them toward it casually. The awaiting aviators appeared to arrange themselves so that women would not recognize what they were approaching, the report said.

When they emerged, one Navy enlisted man told investigators, victims looked like they had been through a pinball machine.

"Many eyewitness accounts described women who had articles of clothing ripped or removed as they went through the gantlet," the report said. "One particularly disturbing incident involved an intoxicated college freshman who was stripped from the waist down as she was passed overhead through the gantlet and then left on the hallway floor
"A female civilian victim told us that, as she walked up the hallway, at least seven men attacked her," the report said. "They pulled down her 'tube top' and grabbed at her exposed breasts while she attempted to cover herself with her arms. She fell to the ground and the assault continued. . . . After a few moments, they stopped their attack and she was allowed to get up from the floor."

The report said that a 24-year-old Navy officer related that she was groped and grabbed by five or six men while two male Navy officers whom she knew stood by and did nothing.

"One victim, a 32-year-old female, reported that she attended Tailhook '91 with her (husband), a Navy officer; her mother and two of her mother's female friends," the report said. "As the group walked through the hallway the victim, who was wearing a formal cocktail dress, was suddenly grabbed around the waist and lifted above the crowd by two men. The men lifted the skirt of her dress above her waist and pushed their hands between her legs. . . . Our investigation revealed that the victim's mother as well as one of her mother's friends were also indecently assaulted as they walked through the hallway."

The US military is utterly and completely irrelevant to this issue. It's a classic diversion tactic because you're unwilling to acknowledge that accepting hundreds of thousands of young males from rampantly misogynistic cultures is going to cause an increase in sex crime. Frankly, your argument is a little disgusting

rickyp wrote:Well, the US military has been rampantly misogynistic too. If rampant misogyny can exist there.... for decades, it ain't just one religions problem. (Though it is a problem for the religion as practiced by some sects.)

But if it is irrelevant Then why did you ask for an example..

Doctor Fate wrote:I'll make it easy for you, rickyp: cite one incident in the military, NYC, or the American college of your choice, wherein young women were surrounded by hundreds of young men who then shouted they wanted to f*** the women, referred to them as "whores," and then forcibly probed and raped them

The report said that a 24-year-old Navy officer related that she was groped and grabbed by five or six men while two male Navy officers whom she knew stood by and did nothing.

"One victim, a 32-year-old female, reported that she attended Tailhook '91 with her (husband), a Navy officer; her mother and two of her mother's female friends," the report said. "As the group walked through the hallway the victim, who was wearing a formal cocktail dress, was suddenly grabbed around the waist and lifted above the crowd by two men. The men lifted the skirt of her dress above her waist and pushed their hands between her legs. . . . Our investigation revealed that the victim's mother as well as one of her mother's friends were also indecently assaulted as they walked through the hallway."

I think Germany is capable of coping with refugees, and the problems and opportunities they present... and you seem to think that they are at the mercy of unruly Muslim thugs who can never control their sexual urges.

You give in to hysteria.

BILD reveals what the authorities conceal in Germany - and why the police may not always tell the whole truth.
A senior police officer from Frankfurt / M. explains to BILD: "For offenses of criminal suspects who have a foreign nationality and are reported in a reception center, we put the case on the desk immediately to the side."
The officer continued: "There are strict instructions of the Board of Directors, not to report offenses committed by refugees. Only direct requests from media representatives to such acts should be answered."

You obviously don't care about facts

It's simply not going to happen for them. What Germany now faces is the prospect of hundreds of thousands of sexually frustrated young men who all have grotesque attitudes towards women in general and western women in particular. It's a powderkeg. Sex crime is going to shoot up. Demand for prostitution is also going to soar, with resultant spikes in human trafficking and other disgusting activities.

One of the main reasons why they didn't have sufficient force in place, which has been confirned by the head of the police union, is that the Cologne police had been stripped of manpower because so many of their members were needed in Bavaria to register refugees. But even if this were not the case, the fact remains that nothing like NYE had ever happened before in Germany, so why would they lay on extras men for an event that they could not reasonably have predicted ?

its your assumptions.
And assumptions that contradict the history of cultural assimilation that occurs in societies where immigrants have full access to society.