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- Ray Jay
- Ambassador
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07 Dec 2011, 5:36 am
On the legal questions:
And therefore the burden of proof on whether to do something about Occupy rests with the government, if the government are to act.
The government has to satisfy that it has not violated their right to assembly (both federal and state, where different). As with all constitutional rights, it does have limitations.
On the practical question:
There is a purpose to it, it's just not one that many agree with.
In the world of politics, having many agree with you is of the utmost importance.
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- Doctor Fate
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07 Dec 2011, 7:15 am
Ray Jay wrote:They are creating expense and cost, and if the middle class is to put up with this, we have to feel like there is some purpose to it. Otherwise it's just self indulgence.
Nicely summarizing why these folks will actually be a negative to anyone, including the President, to whom they are linked next fall.
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- Doctor Fate
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13 Dec 2011, 8:15 am
Yeah, OWS really "changed the conversation." Turns out, they convinced us government is really the problem--and
Democrats agree.
Americans' concerns about the threat of big government are near record-high levels. The Occupy Wall Street movement, focused on "fighting back against the corrosive power of major banks and multinational corporations," has drawn much attention and a large following. Still, the majority of Americans do not view big business as the greatest threat to the country when asked to choose among big business, big government, and big labor. In fact, Americans' concerns about big business have declined significantly since 2009.
Additionally, while Occupy Wall Street isn't necessarily affiliated with a particular party, its anti-big business message may not be resonating with majorities in any party. Republicans, independents, and now close to half of Democrats are more concerned about the threat of big government than that coming from big business.
Well done OWS!
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- Neal Anderth
- Truck Series Driver (Pro II)
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14 Dec 2011, 10:43 am
So OWS takes on big institutions and you cite a survey showing that all but 2% of those surveyed are concerned about big institutions. I'm sure there are polls out there that could confirm your bias and be about OWS all in one fell swoop.
I googled 'Occupy Wall Street Polls' and this was the top hit:
New York City voters disapprove of Mayor Michael Bloomberg’s handling of the Occupy Wall Street protest by a margin of 51% to 42%, a poll released Wednesday showed.
Bloomberg’s overall job rating — 49% approving and 42% disapproving – remained virtually unchanged since earlier in the fall, but it is far below the 70%-range approval rating he enjoyed at the end of his second term in office, according to the survey from the Quinnipiac University Polling Institute. The poll showed 50% of city voters believe the mayor has lost focus in his third term.
The poll also showed widespread support for so-called “living wage” legislation in the City Council that would require wages of at least $10 per hour on projects that receive significant public subsidies. Bloomberg opposes the legislation, and Council Speaker Christine Quinn has yet to take a position.
Last month, Bloomberg authorized the Police Department to raid Zuccotti Park where anti-Wall Street protesters had holed up for nearly two months, clearing out the encampment and arresting hundreds of people. A judge later ruled that the city had the right to enforce rules against protesters bringing camping gear into the Lower Manhattan park.
Democrats disapproved of the mayor’s handling of the protest by a margin of 53% to 40%, while Republicans appeared more divided, with 50% approving of the mayor’s performance and 48% disapproving. Among racial groups, disapproval was highest among Hispanics, with 55% knocking the mayor’s performance.
Voters gave the Police Department slightly higher marks than the mayor. Voters approved of the NYPD’s handling of the protest by a margin of 50% to 46%. But the poll showed a wide racial gap, with white voters approving of the NYPD’s performance by 60% and black voters disapproving by 59%. Hispanic voters were divided, with 47% approving and 50% disapproving.
Police Commissioner Ray Kelly’s overall job approval rating remains high at 66%, while the department received an overall approval rating of 62%.
More than two-thirds of city voters said they generally agree with the protesters’ views, regardless of how they feel about the actual protest. (In semi-related news, Time magazine has named the protester its person of the year for 2011 .) And 81% of city voters said they believe it’s okay for the participants to demonstrate. A majority, 52%, said they approved of the way the protest has been conducted.
I'm reminded of a recent talking head stating that the reason we hadn't and wouldn't see major protests in Russia was because they didn't have the same kind of issues as the Arabs or the debt problems of the West. But lo and behold there were tens of thousands of them out protesting this weekend. I guess they will have to revert to saying it won't break out in a big way in China.
OWS protests centered on major urban areas and were therefore cracked down on by moderate to left leaning politicians. I know you really wanted to make it about the Tea Party, but it kind of wasn't. In my rural community there were 4-5 people with signs for parts of a day, and that was it. People in these parts don't sleep on concrete. Our biggest political fight has been about a mural over a toy store and the city grinches.
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- Doctor Fate
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14 Dec 2011, 11:28 am
Neal Anderth wrote:So OWS takes on big institutions and you cite a survey showing that all but 2% of those surveyed are concerned about big institutions. I'm sure there are polls out there that could confirm your bias and be about OWS all in one fell swoop.
You are, as usual, about as off as could be. OWS is in love with Big Government. They just met with the "Progressive Caucus" of Congress this week. They want Government to redistribute money. That's what the OWS, ultimately, is about.
I googled 'Occupy Wall Street Polls' and this was the top hit:
The largest city in the US is populated with liberals? I am shocked, just shocked.
I'm reminded of a recent talking head stating that the reason we hadn't and wouldn't see major protests in Russia was because they didn't have the same kind of issues as the Arabs or the debt problems of the West. But lo and behold there were tens of thousands of them out protesting this weekend. I guess they will have to revert to saying it won't break out in a big way in China.
OWS protests centered on major urban areas and were therefore cracked down on by moderate to left leaning politicians. I know you really wanted to make it about the Tea Party, but it kind of wasn't. In my rural community there were 4-5 people with signs for parts of a day, and that was it. People in these parts don't sleep on concrete. Our biggest political fight has been about a mural over a toy store and the city grinches.
No, I really want to get to the truth about OWS: it is a fringe movement that will have no impact on the United States electoral map, save the trash they leave behind. That you think it will matter (apparently) is pretty good confirmation that it will be inconsequential.
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- Doctor Fate
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14 Dec 2011, 11:31 am
More evidence that OWS is the 1%. How about their idiotic campaign to
shut down west coast ports?They're leftist morons.
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- Neal Anderth
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14 Dec 2011, 2:53 pm
So since as you say OWS has no electoral impact they can't materially be blamed for the nation's crushing debt and ongoing giant budget deficits as far as the eye can see, no? Who had been in power for 8 years when the 2008 economic collapse hit?
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- bbauska
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14 Dec 2011, 3:26 pm
Republicans were. Did the Dems do any better over the last 3? Nope.
Both sides are (as I have said before) racing to the edge of the cliff. Both sides are arguing over the speed that they are going to die at...
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- Doctor Fate
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15 Dec 2011, 7:58 am
Neal ADD wrote:So since as you say OWS has no electoral impact they can't materially be blamed for the nation's crushing debt and ongoing giant budget deficits as far as the eye can see, no? Who had been in power for 8 years when the 2008 economic collapse hit?
Honestly, you can't stay on a topic or even make sense twice in a row, can you?
Please explain how OWS has been focused on budget deficits?
Frankly, the whole movement is a fraud. If it were genuine, it would have been formed in the aftermath of the bank bailouts instead of on the eve of Obama kicking off his reelection campaign.
What are they doing now? Shutting down ports? What does that have to do with Wall Street? How is that going to impact anything? What was the point of straining municipal budgets, harming local merchants, and leaving tons of garbage and filth behind?
Your "brilliant" response? "Well, the Republicans in 2001 . . ." So, how is that connected?
And, for the record, Democrats controlled the Congress from 2007 until the collapse. So, you could not even get your facts straight on your "aha" counterattack.
Now, how about this
mother of the year? She's the prototype for OWS!
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- Doctor Fate
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16 Dec 2011, 8:20 am
Hey Neal, does money talk?Occupy Wall Street has taken in more than $665,000 in donations since it launched Sept. 17. Here’s the bad news for Occupy: Donations have fallen off a cliff, from a high of around $20,000 per day to a current low of just $98 on Dec. 13.
Again, in the end, OWS will be meaningless. A coalition of the Left, Anarchists, homeless, and the easily swayed was not going to get too far.
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- theodorelogan
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16 Dec 2011, 11:08 am
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- Archduke Russell John
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16 Dec 2011, 1:37 pm
That's a good picture Vince, I like it.
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- Neal Anderth
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23 Dec 2011, 8:16 pm
Vince, do you have a picture for this
one?
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- geojanes
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09 Jan 2012, 12:36 pm
Went down to Zucotti Park yesterday to see how Occupy is aging, and I've got to say, at least yesterday, it bordered on pathetic. The few people that were there were largely the lunatic fringe. There was one woman who seemed sane and rationale, but almost embarrassed by the lack of action in the park and the craziness of the few that were left. The most intelligent conversation I had was with a security guard who felt like he had to tell me (unprompted) that he was a retired detective making 7K a month in pension and $40 an hour at what is a very easy detail. He said that he hoped they would never go home. Private security guards inside the park (about 5) and about 7 police cars outside the park together nearly equaled the number of protesters. The sane woman said the people would be back when the weather gets warmer, but I'm not so sure . . .
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- rickyp
- Statesman
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09 Jan 2012, 2:54 pm
According to the fellow who runs Occupy.com, which is apparently about to undergo a major renovation and expansion...interviewed on CBC radio this AM...the Occupy movement is now aiming at major demonstrations leading up to and centred upon May 1... I guess that will be featured heavily at occupy.com in the coming weeks....
So we'll see if they can generate any attention and participation ... Compared to John Stewart and Steven Colberts "demonstration" they'll have to go some. A sense of humour is always more attractive than too earnerst or too provocative...
In a recent NBC/The Wall Street Journal poll, 60 percent of Americans strongly agreed with the following statement:
The current economic structure of the country is out of balance and favors a very small proportion of the rich over the rest of the country. America needs to reduce the power of major banks and corporations and demand greater accountability and transparency. The government should not provide financial aid to corporations and should not provide tax breaks to the rich
If the leftist rabble had this attitude shift as a goal, then perhaps they were successful.
I suspect its this attitude shift that has seen Obama shift his strategic gears of late. Witness the departure of Daley the corporate fixer...