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Post 08 Dec 2011, 9:04 pm

Even Hitler knows the end is near. :laugh:

Dan, I'll hazard a guess on the date. I reckon that by January 1, 2013, France and Germany will no longer be using the same currency as Italy and Spain.

Please don't hesitate to ask for that care package should you end up needing it. I understand you Brits are fond of baked beans. I'll be happy to send you a case or two.
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Post 09 Dec 2011, 12:29 pm

Machiavelli wrote:Dan, I'll hazard a guess on the date. I reckon that by January 1, 2013, France and Germany will no longer be using the same currency as Italy and Spain.
I will remember this and we'll see in 12 months, three weeks and a few days whether you are right.

Please don't hesitate to ask for that care package should you end up needing it. I understand you Brits are fond of baked beans. I'll be happy to send you a case or two.
There are two reasons why including baked beans would be an error on your part.

1) tinned food is heavy. Better to send dried stuffs as that will keep postage down
2) it's not that I am not fond of baked beans. I am very fond of them. Especially with some chilli sauce and sliced fried chorizo, poured onto hot toast smeared with Marmite and topped with sliced or grated cheddar. It's that my household always has an abundant supply of them precisely beacuse I am so fond of them, so a crate of them will just be added to the one already out in the garage.

Anyway, interestingly the EU (minus the UK) appear to be moving ahead on integration and beefing up he rules. Had the UK not walked away like a petulant child (and Cameron can do petulant very well, albeit nowhere near as well as George Osborne), we would have likely put spanners in the works all the way through the negotiations, and then Cameron would have been forced politically to hold a referendum which would be massively against (regardless of what it was), which would have killed things.

So, the battle to save the Euro is being waged with gusto.
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Post 09 Dec 2011, 5:33 pm

Walking away was the right thing to do, which will become increasingly clear as this slow-moving farce continues to develop. The move to a 'fiscal union' is going to be politically unsustainable in the nedium term as the voters of Europe finally wake up to the way their democratic rights have been stripped away from them, but even if it does prove to be sustainable it isn't anything that we should have anything to do with if we have any kind of respect for democratic accountability. At least Cameron's veto has prevented Sarkozy and Merkel from destroying the City of London before they accept the inevitable.
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Post 09 Dec 2011, 7:55 pm

Meh. The City is part of the problem.
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Post 10 Dec 2011, 12:23 am

It's also a massive contributor of taxes to the UK. As such it's a vital national interest, not the sort of thing we should be surrendering any control over to EU institutions.

Exactly what was in it for Britain in allowing the treaty to go ahead ? Ok, there';s the importance of stability in the Eurozone, but it was already known that they'd go ahead and make their own arrangements without us anyway, so that's not really such an issue. What else ? Please don't utilise any airy waffle about 'influence' or being in the tent unless you can explain why this matters more than national sovereignty.
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Post 10 Dec 2011, 4:45 am

Well, there is the matter of building up goodwill, but I giuess that you think that's too 'waffly'

It could actually undermine national sovereignty by the back door. The other 26 will come to some agreement, and it has the potential to affect us. Given that the EU is our main market, changes there will end up affecting us. Rules and standards that apply there will seep across, and the UK government will struggle to stop it.

Mind you, he had no real choice. This way he appeases the rabid right, but avoids having a referendum, and is able to keep the wets and Lib Dems on side by not having negotiated further to slow the process. Any other way and he would have been under massive pressure. I'm not sure to be honestn whether it's the best outcome for Britain, but it's certainly the best one for Dave. For the short term, anyway.
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Post 10 Dec 2011, 5:14 am

Yes, I do think 'goodwill' is a little waffly really. Ultimately these are hard headed politicians making decisions that they believe to be in the national interest. Goodwill has nothing to do with it. Yes, Britain is looking increasingly marginal in Europe right now, but I'm really not sure why that matters. We had very little influence anyway and at the end of the day most people in this country don't want to be an influential player in the EU if that means further transfers of power to the centre. In fact there's probably only a small majority who are in favour of remaining in the EU at all.
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Post 11 Dec 2011, 10:42 am

Not being lashed quite so tightly to the sinking ship has its benefits, too.
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Post 13 Dec 2011, 9:44 am

I came across an interesting article today. Interesting in and of itself, but especially so since it was actually written back in August 2007, a year before the collapse of Lehman's and way before the Eurozone debt crisis had started to be talked about.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comm ... icane.html

The author is a former head of economic affairs for the European Commission who was sacked for writing a book containing heretical views about the monetary union project. By all accounts he's now hugely in demand, able to charge $100000 a go for his economic analysis reports, and you can see why:

The Fed is going to have to make very substantial cuts in the general level of interest rates if it is going to have any chance of preserving financial stability and avoiding an extremely serious recession. It will do that, even if it does not yet realise just how much it is going to have to do, because its mandate will make it do it. The Fed was created, in response to the 1907 financial crisis in the US, precisely to try to avoid further crises. And, whatever mistakes Greenspan may have made, he just got it wrong: he didn't deliberately set up this Greek Tragedy.

In contrast, the EU quite deliberately created the most dangerous credit bubble of all: EMU. And, whereas the mission of the Fed is to avoid a financial crisis, the mission of the ECB is to provoke one. The purpose of the crisis will be, as Prodi, then Commission president, said in 2002, to allow the EU to take more power for itself. The sacrificial victims will be, in the first instance, families and firms (and banks and investors) in countries such as Ireland and Club Med. Subsequently, German savers (or British taxpayers) will bear the burden of bailouts that a newly-empowered "EU economic government" will ordain.

The mechanism is plain to see. Germany entered the euro with an overvalued exchange rate. It then faced a long period of high unemployment that drove wages down and restored its competitive position. But Germany was also helped at the beginning of this process by the newly-established ECB, then dominated by the Bundesbank president, Tietmeyer, and his acolyte, Trichet, then governor of the Banque de France. The ECB initially set interest rates where Germany needed them - far too low for most other EMU countries - and allowed extreme euro weakness.

That combination, and Germany's initial uncompetitiveness, created booms in many other EMU countries. But, as in the US in the 1920 and again in the 1990s, inappropriate interest rates and temporarily booming growth totally distorted perceptions of today versus tomorrow. The result has been that firms and families in these countries have massively over-borrowed and banks and investors have massively over-lent, often on the illusory security of inflated house prices.

Several of these countries have built up enormous current account deficits. They are now the ones that over the next decade will have to restore competitiveness. But, trapped in EMU, they can do that only through unemployment and wage reductions. Very high unemployment and deflation will make debts simply unpayable. But, trapped in EMU, these countries cannot do for themselves what Greenspan did and Bernanke will have to do - slash interest rates. And Tietmeyer's successor, Weber, will be striving to ensure the ECB does not do it for them. The resulting carnage in the financial system of the whole euro area will make the present global financial crisis, serious though it is, seem almost insignificant.

Eventually, when things have got bad enough, the German public will be forced to acquiesce in lowered interest rates and high German inflation. But by then the EU will have taken the opportunity to seize control of the financial system (cheerfully punishing the London financial "casino" in the process), dictate budgetary policies, extort bail-out transfers from countries such as Britain and impose exchange controls with the rest of the world (and even, as reportedly threatened in a 1998 meeting of the EU Employment Committee, impose exit taxes - expropriation of life savings - on people seeking to flee the EU). And it will seek to "democratise" this power grab by instituting an emergency "European government".

Would Britain resist? The revived "constitution" now being rammed through allows future constitutional changes to be made just on the say-so of a cabal of heads of government, with no need for ratification. Would any British prime minister be prepared - or be allowed - to do his duty and say no in such a carefully-manufactured emergency?

The history of the past fifty years offers no reassurance whatsoever.


Doesn't seem terribly wide of the mark does it ?
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Post 13 Dec 2011, 11:51 am

It's not bad as predictions go. better than some I could mention. I'd disagree that this was a 'carefully-managed emergency' though. Looks thoroughly disorganised to me.
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Post 13 Dec 2011, 1:36 pm

Well yes, although I suppose it would have to look that way.

In all honesty though, it's pretty scary that a former Commission insider was able to so accurately predict all this stuff from such a distance. The political ramifications of the Euro project are absolutely massive and nobody seems to be talking about it, or at least not to the extent that it deserves.
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Post 13 Dec 2011, 1:55 pm

Well, he's been banging the drum since 1995 it seems. The book he wrote back then was what got him the sack from the Commission, and basically said that the whole single currency project was a plot by Germany and France to create a federal political union by stealth.

I tend to give more credence to the cock-up theory than the conspiracy theory. I think what actually happened was that a compromise was reached whereby the EU would turn a blind eye to nations breaking the deficit and borrowing limits for the Euro and those nations would not moan too much about an ECB that tended to favour the needs of other countries.

I think that the key issue with Europe is the democratic deficit. What rankles me is that attempts to deal with it - beefing up the Parliament, for example - get lumped in by UK Eurosceptics as being centralising and a threat. And ironically, I think UKIP would be a better force for their own agenda if they had MPs in Westminster than by having a large contingent at Strasbourg. But voters and the political scene work the wrong way around for them.
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Post 13 Dec 2011, 3:40 pm

I'm not normally one for conspiracy theories myself, but I do think there may be something to this one. It was obvious from the very outset that a currency union could never have worked without political convergence to go along with it, and it's not like these were stupid people who were involved with the project, they'd have known it too. At the same time it'd also well known that the people driving the European project always intended for it to gradually lead towards greater and greater integration, with the ultimate goal of political union. This being the case I don't think it unreasonable to suppose that the Euro was created as an expressly political project designed in the long term to create the circumstances where political convergence was an inevitability. Whether that means they deliberately inflated a bubble so as to cause a financial crisis is another matter of course, but it's certainly the case that a lot of very bright people turned a blind eye to a lot of very shady practice and book cooking when the likes of Greece, Spain and Italy joined the Euro, and I don't really believe they were unaware of the potential consequences.
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Post 13 Feb 2012, 2:18 pm

More "hysterical reporting" for Danvion.
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Post 13 Feb 2012, 4:19 pm

Yes, there was a riot. Most protesters were not violent, but the anarcho-nutters were. Such is Greece.

But at the same time, the austerity package that Europe wanted them to sign was passed. May not have made as good a picture set as a good ol' fashioned riot, but the markets went up...