danivon wrote:Given that I acknowledge that GDP has reached pre-crash levels (I said 'only just' because it only exceeds by a tiny proportion in real terms, and only did so in recent months) I have to ask if you read my words before asking.

The US has therefore got to where it should be 3 years ago, and is not yet showing solid growth. I would say when the lag is down to a year and growth is at 'normal' levels, you can have eased off.

Ray Jay wrote:Re 2nd paragraph, can you explain what you mean?

You know, I think my question is really the crux of the matter between Keynesianism and austerity. One can argue that the short term stimulus ala Keynes makes sense if you believe that you will eventually have the wherewithal to repay the debt or at least cover the interest without worry.

However, if your government continues to stimulate AND you do not get to a growth "lag ... to a year and growth ... at 'normal' levels" (and I still don't exactly know what that means), what do you do next.

Danivon, is your prescription for all of these other countries the same as it is for the US?

Ray Jay wrote:what does that have to do with OWS?

Doctor Fate wrote:

Ray Jay wrote:what does that have to do with OWS?

Zero.

So, when you connect the dots, properly understood, what happened this week is the first battle in a civil war; a civil war in which, for now, only one side is choosing violence. It is a battle in which members of Congress, with the collusion of the American president, sent violent, organised suppression against the people they are supposed to represent. Occupy has touched the third rail: personal congressional profits streams.

Doctor Fate wrote:

Ray Jay wrote:what does that have to do with OWS?

Zero. One might as well say this story is related to OWS too. No matter what [personal attack] may claim it is not part of the OWS-generated email to thwart retailers.There are violent episodes nearly every Black Friday. This woman went a bit psychotic.

geojanes wrote:Oh, and another article on how this the previous article is complete BS and DHS coordination was made up by none other than Michael Moore.

http://www.drumsnwhistles.com/2011/11/25/how-bullshit-magically-turns-into-fact/

The headlines on both of these stories (Wonkette and WashingtonsBlog) were splayed across the sites in very large heading fonts: “Homeland Security Coordinated….” and yet the AP confirms everything BUT DHS coordination. Still, that didn’t stop Wolf from ignoring the AP story entirely and writing a piece for the Guardian that included links to bolster her argument that clearly don’t.

Why? I reiterate. No one has a source, no one has any evidence, and the originating story which Michael Moore and now Naomi Wolf breathlessly spread quotes an anonymous source with the promise of still more to come in the future. Well, it’s the future. It’s two weeks later and crickets from Mr. Ellis. Mission accomplished, though. Ask people who are paying attention to the OWS movement and they’ll swear up and down that yes, it was coordinated by DHS because MICHAEL MOORE and now NAOMI WOLF say so.

Truth: We don’t know. It isn’t completely out of the realm of possibility for mayors to consult with DHS. After all, that’s what they’re there for. To help local and state governments deal with threats. At best, one can conclude that maybe they did, and maybe they didn’t coordinate.

But again, it doesn’t matter if you can spread it on the Internet and get Keith Olbermann to pick it up and give Michael Moore a mic to spread that nonsense further (see video).

danivon wrote:
So, did OWS actually try to physically occupy stores or intimidate shoppers? Or did they do more of the 'boycott' that the email calls for?

The City Hall park where Occupy Los Angeles protesters are camped will be closed at 12:01 a.m. Monday, according to Los Angeles Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa, triggering what officials hope will be an end to the nation's largest remaining Occupy camp.

But police might not immediately begin removing protesters who linger, the mayor said at a news conference Friday with Police Chief Charlie Beck. He said officials hope in the coming days to help protesters move their belongings and to find beds in homeless shelters for those at the camp who need them.

The two officials would not say whether police were prepared to use tear gas or rubber bullets to clear protesters who refuse to leave, tactics officers in other cities have turned to while clearing Occupy encampments. "The goal is to do this as peacefully as possible," Beck said.

When Occupy protesters set up camp on the City Hall lawn seven weeks ago, officials went out of their way to welcome them. The City Council passed a resolution in support of the demonstration, and council President Eric Garcetti invited protesters to "stay as long as you need to." On a wet morning in October, aides to Villaraigosa handed out rain slickers.

But the political tide inside City Hall has turned against those camped outside — a shift driven by concerns about damage to the lawn and public health and safety risks.

Speaking before cameras on Friday, Villaraigosa read from a letter addressed to Occupy Los Angeles. The mayor, himself a former labor union and community organizer, praised the protesters for shifting the national dialogue to issues of social justice and economic equality.

. . .

On Thursday, Occupy L.A. released its first official statement to the city, vowing to stay camped out on the lawn.

According to protester Ruth Fowler, the statement was written collaboratively by several hundred protesters and was approved with 100% consensus during Wednesday's general assembly meeting. In it, protesters said they would cease further negotiations with officials until 10 grievances were addressed.

Some demands on the list are specific, like a call for a moratorium on all home foreclosures in Los Angeles, as well as a call for the city to divest from all major banks. Others, such as a call for "money to be removed from politics," are less so.

The protesters also want a new name for the 1.7 acres of lawn surrounding City Hall: "Solidarity Park."

Doctor Fate wrote:By next November, every sane politician will be running from OWS.

Take away the initial changes to CRA and you take away eased credit restrictions and lessened regulations.

Neal Anderth wrote:

Doctor Fate wrote:By next November, every sane politician will be running from OWS.

It's Republicans and Democrats that have run this country off an economic cliff. Are you actually surprised that bankrupting the country is leading to unrest?