I could go through that whole thing, case by case. Some are questionable at best.

However, these are all State disability issues and NOT part of Social Security disability.

Agreed. Just showing a pattern.

ray

Au contraire. There's been anecdotal evidence (Tom's nephew) and statistical evidence (increase in disability levels for people in their 20's, 30's, and 40's). Why do you say zero evidence?

really? You count Toms nephew as evidence of a trend to the the end of initiative amongst Americans generally?Seriously?

Whats been shown is that there is an explosion in claimants. An explosion that coincided with the economic melt down and the sudden increase in jobless after 2008...
People consider their options and discover that they have enough physical problems to qualify for Federal Disability.If they didn't apply for Disability, what would they have? No jobs so thats not an option. .So, whats available? No medical coverage and a slightly smaller income under UI or welfare...
But if there had been no crash, and no huge surge in unemployment would people be making this choice? They aren't choosing disability over working ...They are choosing it over the options they have that aren't work...
If Fates premise is correct, then there would be employment shortages caused by the frauds collecting Disability, We would not have continuing high unemployment levels, especially for those in manual labour ...
Show some data that says that there are jobs galore going wanting in areas where there is suddenly high disability... . You won;t find it, because the work ethic remains strong in the US.
The caricature offered is that that the benefits offered are so lavish that they attract fraudsters avoiding genuine employment opportunity. Re read what the standard benefit is ....

Even in nations like Sweden, where unemployment benefits are quite lavish, people aren't given to the life style Toms nephew has taken up ... Work is generally appreciated, and needed as part of the social nature of man the animal. The comparably minimal benefits of the Federal program aren't offering enough to anyone who has a genuine employment option. (With the possible exception of medical coverage which might be a game changer for some people with real medical issues...)

If on the other hand you complain because they won;t take 20 hours a week at minimum wage , with no medical coverage or other benefits ... If its that people aren't making this choice over disability ...

rickyp wrote:If Fates premise is correct, then there would be employment shortages caused by the frauds collecting Disability, We would not have continuing high unemployment levels, especially for those in manual labour ...
Show some data that says that there are jobs galore going wanting in areas where there is suddenly high disability... . You won;t find it, because the work ethic remains strong in the US.
The caricature offered is that that the benefits offered are so lavish that they attract fraudsters avoiding genuine employment opportunity. Re read what the standard benefit is .... .

Epically dishonest. Maybe your worst post ever.

I never said fraud created labor shortages (nee "employment shortages") caused by fraudulent Disability claims.

Straw men across the Internet are embarrassed by that line of "argument."

Just a few questions and observations...

(1) What percentage of increase in disability claims since the Financial Crisis is due to intentional fraud as opposed to good faith claims? I doubt there is an answer to that question, but if you can't answer that question then you're just guessing.

(2) What percentage of American employees could be classified as being disabled? What percentage of those over 50 could be classified as being disabled?

(3) The MIT study says there are 2.5 million disabled out of nine million on federal disability that are in their 20s, 30s, 40s? How many of that sub-group of 2.5 million are actually in their 20s or even 30s? In other words, is that sub-group dominated by those in their 40s?

(4) If 2.5 million are in their 20s, 30s and 40s then most disabled people are over 50. (6.5 million out of 9 million or 72%)

(5) Given an unemployment rate of just under 8% and a real unemployment rate close to 14%, if those who were on disability got work, wouldn't that just push other people out of jobs and then what do we do with them? If the economy is not producing enough jobs for workers, what do we do with those who can't get jobs, whether they are classified as being disabled or not?

(6) If there are enough jobs being created and those who go on disability who shouldn't are not there to fill them, then they why can't willing workers find jobs? If there is weakening of the American work ethic, then shouldn't those who are not disabled find jobs easily?

(7) If disability claims are largely fraudulent then why is there is such a high correlation between age and disability claims (indicating that there is a substantial basis for most claims as it is reasonable to assume that our bodies are more likely to break down as we age)

(8) If our economy does not create enough jobs for workers then why would we bame workers for attempting to get disability for whatever ailments they have as long as they do it honestly? Clearly, for men to accept disability is far more acceptable than to receive welfare and I am not even sure what welfare they could get.

(9) There is a difference between blaming a system for being too generous and blaming a worker who takes legitimate advantage of the system (sort of like taking advantage of the tax system).

The original story linked by Dr. Fate shows that states (and sometimes cities) are proactively taking people off of their welfare roles and helping them get onto federal disability. It's not that the individuals have a choice between the two. It's that the states have found an easy way to move them.

fate

I never said fraud created labor shortages (nee "employment shortages") caused by fraudulent Disability claims.

No you didn't. Nor did I say you made that specific claim. Nor can I help your reading comprehension...
But I'll try and rephrase to be entirely clear.... and you can try and respond...
I said that if your original premise is correct,
and your original premise was

"I think it goes to show that government can actually take initiative out of its citizens.

then people are removing themselves from the work force for the disability. And doing so in order to avoid taking a job .
If this were true, there would be decent paying jobs vacant.
There aren't.

rickyp wrote:fate

I never said fraud created labor shortages (nee "employment shortages") caused by fraudulent Disability claims.

No you didn't. Nor did I say you made that specific claim. Nor can I help your reading comprehension...

Worry less about me and more about yourself. You'll come out ahead.

But I'll try and rephrase to be entirely clear.... and you can try and respond...
I said that if your original premise is correct,
and your original premise was

"I think it goes to show that government can actually take initiative out of its citizens.

then people are removing themselves from the work force for the disability. And doing so in order to avoid taking a job .

Here's where your logic fails. First, factually, the labor participation rate: is it rising or falling?

Answer: it's falling.

What does that mean?

It means fewer people are working.

Is the unemployment rate rising or falling?

Falling.

How can that be?

Because fewer people are looking for jobs. Some of that (as Danivon is quick to exclaim) is because our median age is rising. However, that only explains part of it. There is also discouragement--part of which is this. Even if it's only a sliver (unproven), it exists.

Second, it does not mean they are taking disability instead of TAKING a job. It does mean they are taking disability instead of LOOKING FOR a job.

Get it?

If this were true, there would be decent paying jobs vacant.
There aren't.

Your leap of logic is just that--a leap.

Rickyp:

Whats been shown is that there is an explosion in claimants. An explosion that coincided with the economic melt down and the sudden increase in jobless after 2008...

Thank you for agreeing with us!
This is exactly the point we are making, we have had an explosion of claims, most being unprovable ones. The jump was actually growing for a longer time than since 2008 but still, your continued discussion of how people use this as an OPTION, shows the problem. Disability is not intended to be an OPTION, you either can work or you can not work, to suggest people can opt in as they like only proves how it is not working...thanks for helping make our point!
These people who "chose" disability are therefore fraudulent!

oh, and my Nephew is scamming the welfare system not the disability system (not yet anyways). My ex-neighbor (and his wife) is the one scamming disability! But that's certainly only anecdotal, heaven knows this is not wide spread!?

Would you report them, Tom?

fate

Second, it does not mean they are taking disability instead of TAKING a job. It does mean they are taking disability instead of LOOKING FOR a job

Wow. Now there's a distinction.And I get the technical difference...
But if they are looking without finding .... whilst they look they have no income and no health insurance...
Or limited UI and no health insurance ....

By choosing to apply and qualify for disability they've improved their circumstance . Particularly in terms of security for a health issue.
By choosing the noble path you would have them choose, continuing to look for non-existent work they are better how?
I agree with you entirely that this is happening Fate. I don't think, however, its because these people are less motivated to find work. I'm pretty sure that if offered a decent income and health benefits the lavish $13,000 a year that Disability provides would be unattractive. And if they could manage the physical demands of a good paying job ... most, if not all, would opt for the work.
You've confused cause and affect.....
People are not choosing disability over work.
They are opting for disability because there is NO work. And because Disability is modestly better than any other option available to them.


Tom

Disability is not intended to be an OPTION

Then why do people have to apply?
It doesn't happen automatically does it?

Disability is intended to provide security for people who cannot maintain a job because of their physical limitations. When the benefits are better than straight welfare or UI, especially the medical benefits, more people with marginal infirmity will apply.
None of this is rocket science. None of it suggests Americans have given up on working for a living because disability is a feather bed.
What it says is that medical insecurity and a complete lack of employment options drives some to the choice,
Getting rid of Federal disability wouldn't change the circumstance for these people. Making it harder to get, would, by the estimates provided by Freeman save about $10 billion net...
And take about $20 billion out of the hands of these exceedingly low income households. (10 billion would be spent employing people to chase these folks claims...)
But would that tighter process create any more jobs for the people who are claiming disability? That situation is unchanged... And for those forced off, do they now go to emergency wards for their medical care? If so, you've just cost the tax payer more money than giving these people medicaid.....
What do you do with those unfortunates who can't find a real job, with benefits, that will provide them security as they reach 65>?

I agree that federal disability is a poor program. Its a band aid solution when a broader, efficient, effective solution is required. ....But : it isn't taking initiative out of Americans.. per Fates claim:
Fate

I think it goes to show that government can actually take initiative out of its citizens.

rickyp wrote:fate

Second, it does not mean they are taking disability instead of TAKING a job. It does mean they are taking disability instead of LOOKING FOR a job

Wow. Now there's a distinction.And I get the technical difference...
But if they are looking without finding .... whilst they look they have no income and no health insurance...
Or limited UI and no health insurance ....

By choosing to apply and qualify for disability they've improved their circumstance . Particularly in terms of security for a health issue.
By choosing the noble path you would have them choose, continuing to look for non-existent work they are better how?

Prove that the people CANNOT get jobs.

There's a big leap between "don't want to" and ""can't."

There are jobs available. I can list dozens without going to the Internet, or looking at want ads. I see "help wanted" signs all over.

How do YOU know that none of those jobs have healthcare, especially here in MA, where it's been the law?

I agree with you entirely that this is happening Fate. I don't think, however, its because these people are less motivated to find work. I'm pretty sure that if offered a decent income and health benefits the lavish $13,000 a year that Disability provides would be unattractive.

You keep citing that and it shows how full of bleep you are. Do a google search! http://www.disabilitysecrets.com/how-much-in-ssd.html

The maximum disability benefit in 2013 is $2,533.

If you don't have anything intelligent to say and are not willing to spend five seconds looking, stop posting.

And if they could manage the physical demands of a good paying job ... most, if not all, would opt for the work.

Prove it.

You've confused cause and affect.....
People are not choosing disability over work.
They are opting for disability because there is NO work. And because Disability is modestly better than any other option available to them.

You're guessing.

Prove it.

Would I report them?
...yes
But neither can be proven to be breaking the law. My nephew does not marry his baby-momma and it's no crime (should be, but that's another issue)

My ex-neighbor and his wife have a doctors excuse that they suffer from depression, I know they are scamming but can't "prove" it and that is exactly what this issue is all about, funny how he worked his whole life then suddenly met a woman and they both had the same mental issue allowing them to no longer work at the same time!?

as far as Ricky's statement
Because someone has to APPLY it becomes and Option?
....what????
Of course they need to apply for the disability, how else would they get it whether disabled for real or scamming the system, no kidding they need to apply, Yes they can chose not to apply but it does not change the fact that a person can or can not work. I myself COULD apply tomorrow. I have no health problems but i could apply and say I have depression, see a doctor and make him believe me and bingo I get disability when I do not deserve it Because I APPLIED it became a viable "option"? Scamming the system is viable if I decide I don't want to work any longer????

...my ex-neighbor and his wife sure do seem to have used this a feather bed no doubt!

fate

Prove that the people CANNOT get jobs

You recognize this fate?

That's a kind of ugly secret of the American labor market," David Autor, an economist at MIT, told me. "Part of the reason our unemployment rates have been low, until recently, is that a lot of people who would have trouble finding jobs are on a different program."
Part of the rise in the number of people on disability is simply driven by the fact that the workforce is getting older, and older people tend to have more health problems.
But disability has also become a de facto welfare program for people without a lot of education or job skills. But it wasn't supposed to serve this purpose; it's not a retraining program designed to get people back onto their feet

or this

There used to be a lot of jobs that you could do with just a high school degree, and that paid enough to be considered middle class. I knew, of course, that those have been disappearing for decades. What surprised me was what has been happening to many of the people who lost those jobs: They've been going on disability.

Its from your source....
http://apps.npr.org/unfit-for-work/


fate

How do YOU know that none of those jobs have healthcare

People who leave the workforce and go on disability qualify for Medicare, the government health care program that also covers the elderly. They also get disability payments from the government of about $13,000 a year. This isn't great. But if your alternative is a minimum wage job that will pay you at most $15,000 a year, and probably does not include health insurance, disability may be a better option.

Again, I'm using your original source Fate... You seemed to like the source when you posted it...


But there are lots of jobs going wanting in the US. Its just that the people who've resorted to disability, don't qualify...They don't have the education or they are in the wrong part of the country and can't afford to move, or they are considered too old by the potential employer....
Its call Skills Gap"

If you’re one of the 23 million Americans currently out of work or underemployed then buck up. It might interest you to know that US manufacturers currently have 3 million job openings. And according to a report on “60 Minutes” last night, the only thing standing between you and a paycheck is a little thing called a “skills gap.”

http://www.infowars.com/us-manufacturer ... s-to-fill/