geojanes wrote:I'll still believe it when I see it. But did you see this article? Trump has personally insulted virtually every Republican who you've heard of. It lists those insults and wonders how he can ever unite the party? I guess it depends on how personally people take his insults.

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/political-animal-a/2016_02/how_will_trump_unite_the_party059723.php

He won't get conservatives, so I hope he appeals to disaffected Democrats.

Nah, forget that. I hope he gets embarrassed.

John Oliver has moved me much closer to looking back on my initial interest in the Chump as a bad dream.

Do yourself a favor and watch even a portion of this clip...

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/09/business/media/trump-segment-on-john-oliver-show-explodes-on-youtube.html?module=WatchingPortal&region=c-column-middle-span-region&pgType=Homepage&action=click&mediaId=thumb_square&state=standard&contentPlacement=3&version=internal&contentCollection=www.nytimes.com&contentId=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nytimes.com%2F2016%2F03%2F09%2Fbusiness%2Fmedia%2Ftrump-segment-on-john-oliver-show-explodes-on-youtube.html&eventName=Watching-article-click

It seriously took John Oliver to make you think twice?

danivon wrote:It seriously took John Oliver to make you think twice?

too funny ... some Brits are more persuasive than others.

I'll still believe it when I see it. But did you see this article? Trump has personally insulted virtually every Republican who you've heard of. It lists those insults and wonders how he can ever unite the party? I guess it depends on how personally people take his insults.

At the end of the last debate, after repeatedly saying that Trump was wholly unqualified to be President, the three candidates pledged to support Trump if he won the nomination.
That is irrational.

rickyp wrote:

I'll still believe it when I see it. But did you see this article? Trump has personally insulted virtually every Republican who you've heard of. It lists those insults and wonders how he can ever unite the party? I guess it depends on how personally people take his insults.

At the end of the last debate, after repeatedly saying that Trump was wholly unqualified to be President, the three candidates pledged to support Trump if he won the nomination.
That is irrational.

No, it's called "party loyalty."

It's pretty simple: one is either a Republican or not. It is impossible for me to see how one could refuse to support him and yet think you would have his support if he does not get the nomination.

Watching Trump is like watching a game of Jenga. I keep waiting to see how much nonsense he can get away with before his supporters finally say "Whuh? Really?"

I'd venture to say that very few of his supporters have watched the last few debates. His positions are indefensible. It's become clear it is a cult of personality and NOTHING more.

fate

No, it's called "party loyalty."[/q
I see even Marco is starting to have problems with that....

Fate

It's pretty simple: one is either a Republican or not. It is impossible for me to see how one could refuse to support him and yet think you would have his support if he does not get the nomination

.
I think its safe to assume that Trump would not be loyal to anyone if if if not serve his self interest, above all else.

The concept of personal loyalty oaths is one that often pervades the rise of demagogues and despots. Look up Hitler Oath for the most extreme example.
Preibus used the Republican Party candidate loyalty oath as a way to force Trump to commit to not running a third party campaign. And now it has trapped the party into supporting this demagogue.... And is now essentially a personal loyalty oath to Trump.
This is entirely misplaced loyalty.
And it cemented the hijacking of the party.

Which is funny because Trumps policy positions, as vague and undefined as they are, tend to be far less extreme than those espoused by the remaining candidates. (With the exception of immigration where most are just as ridiculous as Trump).

Doctor Fate wrote:

rickyp wrote:

I'll still believe it when I see it. But did you see this article? Trump has personally insulted virtually every Republican who you've heard of. It lists those insults and wonders how he can ever unite the party? I guess it depends on how personally people take his insults.

At the end of the last debate, after repeatedly saying that Trump was wholly unqualified to be President, the three candidates pledged to support Trump if he won the nomination.
That is irrational.

No, it's called "party loyalty."

It's pretty simple: one is either a Republican or not. It is impossible for me to see how one could refuse to support him and yet think you would have his support if he does not get the nomination.

Trump is not really a Republican though, is he? And at some point party loyalty has to have limits, it's not the Communist Party, after all.

Watching Trump is like watching a game of Jenga. I keep waiting to see how much nonsense he can get away with before his supporters finally say "Whuh? Really?"

I'd venture to say that very few of his supporters have watched the last few debates. His positions are indefensible. It's become clear it is a cult of personality and NOTHING more.

When he sneered at McCain's POW heroism, and support rose, it should have been a tell. When misogyny towards Megyn Kelly was widely reported, and he maintained his support, that sealed it for me. Even if they do watch debates and coverage, there is a hard she'll protecting a lot of his supporters from reality.

Rubio was the best hope for the Republicans, but he's pretty much out now if he can't win Florida.

Rubio is a lightweight and if he does somehow manage to get the nomination (very unlikely at this point of course) he'll be exposed as such. Kasich seems to me like the best prospect they have of actually beating Hillary. That's been obvious for a long time to everybody except Republican primary voters.

Danivion wrote: Trump is not really a Republican though, is he? And at some point party loyalty has to have limits, it's not the Communist Party, after all.

Right, however, demanding Party loyalty while threatening Party unity doesn't seem coherent, does it?

Looking at the math, I don't think Trump will get to 1237. And, if he doesn't come within a very few of that total, I believe heaven and Earth will be moved to stop him at the convention.

Watching Trump is like watching a game of Jenga. I keep waiting to see how much nonsense he can get away with before his supporters finally say "Whuh? Really?"

I'd venture to say that very few of his supporters have watched the last few debates. His positions are indefensible. It's become clear it is a cult of personality and NOTHING more.

When he sneered at McCain's POW heroism, and support rose, it should have been a tell. When misogyny towards Megyn Kelly was widely reported, and he maintained his support, that sealed it for me. Even if they do watch debates and coverage, there is a hard she'll protecting a lot of his supporters from reality.

Rubio was the best hope for the Republicans, but he's pretty much out now if he can't win Florida.

What's interesting is the number of Democrats switching parties to vote for Trump and the people who have not previously voted who are voting for Trump. What this shows me is that the poorly educated (e.g. "Politically uninformed") are flocking to Trump. He may well go independent. If so, he should name his movement the "neo Know-Nothing" Party.

Sassenach wrote:Rubio is a lightweight and if he does somehow manage to get the nomination (very unlikely at this point of course) he'll be exposed as such. Kasich seems to me like the best prospect they have of actually beating Hillary. That's been obvious for a long time to everybody except Republican primary voters.

I believe you are 100% wrong on both counts. I don't know how much of these two you've seen, but Kasich is a snoozer. His single skill, imnsho, is he is the master of the "humblebrag." He is the anti-Trump in many ways, BUT he is precisely like Trump in this sense: he can't stop bragging about his accomplishments. To his credit, he seems almost embarrassed that he's so great.

However, his rhetorical skills almost make Hillary seem stirring.

Rubio, on the other hand, has little to boast about in terms of accomplishments. When it comes to rhetorical flourish, he bows to no one in this race.

Back to Trump: I believe the GOP will, in the end, risk even its own future to make sure Trump is not the nominee. He's that hazardous to the future of the republic. I have friends that support him. One I've known (albeit not well) for 25 years. I had a brief exchange with him about his support for Trump. The gist of it: "he's not a politician." I've yet to challenge him on the many outlandish things Trump has said. I think part of the support for Trump is that there is a strong belief on the Right that Hillary is more likely to be in jail than on the ballot in November.

All politicians brag about their accomplishments, at least Kasich actually has a few. As it stands the alternatives are two first term Senators (inexperienced Senators make wonderful Presidents I'm sure you'll agree....) and a billionaire demagogue with no political experience whatsoever.

Rubio still sounds pre-recorded much of the time, so I would not give him that much credit for his rhetoric. Rhetorical flourishes need to sound like they come from Rubio, not like they were written by someone else and memorized. Kasich is a typical Midwesterner...very nice and a little boring. ( gosh, did I say that?) I did like the humble-brag comment...that's funny.

With Trump and Sanders I just think a lot of people people are rather insistent that there be actual change this election and they are tuning out everything else. The only real danger to the party I think is if Trump goes to the convention with the most delegates and is frozen out. If Trump gets elected it won't be the end of the world. Our system needs a little shaking up right now, with gridlock, unwillingness to compromise, and catering to monied interests being the status quo. If you want to stop Trump you need someone who speaks to all the disaffected people out there and the Republican Party has no one. I favor Sanders over Hillary, Hillary over Trump, Trump over Cruz. I think Trump's over the top comments are mostly cynical pandering rather than signs of proto fascism. In any case , our system has a lot of brakes to put on a president and election would sober Trump up in a hurry. I suspect he would try to get some things done in things he knows and defer to the experts in military and foreign policy. Heck, we had Arnold and he was awful... The world kept spinning.

Sassenach wrote:All politicians brag about their accomplishments, at least Kasich actually has a few. As it stands the alternatives are two first term Senators (inexperienced Senators make wonderful Presidents I'm sure you'll agree....) and a billionaire demagogue with no political experience whatsoever.

I refuse to engage in the stereotyping of young Senators. You may do so if you wish (if I was a liberal, I would have thrown in "minority" to make you feel guilty, so you're welcome ).

Kasich is the only remaining Republican who can stand on the stage with Hillary and make her seem interesting. I think the problem with his accomplishments is that he claims them too readily. In recent events, he has taken credit for our victory in the Spanish-American War and the Moon landing. (Okay, maybe not, but it feels that way).

freeman3 wrote:Rubio still sounds pre-recorded much of the time, so I would not give him that much credit for his rhetoric. Rhetorical flourishes need to sound like they come from Rubio, not like they were written by someone else and memorized.

Maybe we have not both seen the same things . . .

Kasich is a typical Midwesterner...very nice and a little boring. ( gosh, did I say that?) I did like the humble-brag comment...that's funny.

How about a teensy bit of butter on your bagel? Yes, he's that dull. He is the man who could make Republicans yearn for the thrill of Romney!

With Trump and Sanders I just think a lot of people people are rather insistent that there be actual change this election and they are tuning out everything else. The only real danger to the party I think is if Trump goes to the convention with the most delegates and is frozen out.

I disagree. If Trump gets the nomination, few in the Party will campaign for him. He will whine about that. I can see a real crisis in the Party if he is nominated.

If Trump gets elected it won't be the end of the world.

Again, I disagree. Having run his campaign on being Trump (and not a politician), he will pull out all the stops and use whatever Obama did to justify his own abuse of the Constitution. Who can guess at what manner of havoc he might wreak? I could easily see him forcing the Supreme Court to take sides between him and Congress.

Our system needs a little shaking up right now, with gridlock, unwillingness to compromise, and catering to monied interests being the status quo. If you want to stop Trump you need someone who speaks to all the disaffected people out there and the Republican Party has no one.

I think Trump speaks to the base of the base, if that makes sense. He has gathered the low information Right and Middle--those who think the "problem" is politicians. Now, there is some truth to that. However, he has said so many xenophobic and misogynistic things that I cannot believe he will win. What do you think, Andrew Klavan?

I favor Sanders over Hillary, Hillary over Trump, Trump over Cruz. I think Trump's over the top comments are mostly cynical pandering rather than signs of proto fascism.

While I agree, the response to him--Chicago, etc.--shows the potential for massive unrest and conflict. I don't think that is healthy for the country. (And, I think the union rubes may actually help Trump get elected).

In any case , our system has a lot of brakes to put on a president and election would sober Trump up in a hurry. I suspect he would try to get some things done in things he knows and defer to the experts in military and foreign policy. Heck, we had Arnold and he was awful... The world kept spinning.

But, Arnold gave up. Arnold quit. After his initiatives were voted down, he became a Democrat in word and deed. Trump won't quit.