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- dag hammarsjkold
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16 Nov 2015, 11:01 am
Ricky wrote:
Unless you have a better place for the refugees to settle... the West should find them places to live.
The West should find them a place to live? So now the rest of the world is off the hook?
Over 11 pages, 164 replies and 1,330 views ago (a reference for Sessanach) when I started this thread I wrote:
Curious Danivon, are there any wealthy Arab nations that have lifted so much as a finger to assist with this crisis? Maybe there are. I really don't know. You will know better than me. But the impression I get is that not one country whose population is largely Islamic gives a flying #@ck about the Syrian refugees outside of Turkey, who lets face it, are involved primarily due to proxy. Why is that Danivon? Ricky?
Isn't this a problem for the entire world? Not simply the West? Where is the Islamic leadership? Surely there is some level of economic infrastructure within some of the Arab nations that would allow some modicum of absorption of refugees? It strikes me as odd that the narrative at the moment is centered on the West as somehow irresponsible unless it solves the problem. I suppose it's because of the West's involvement (or lack thereof) in the Syrian war?
Angela Merkel has forever changed the face of Europe in her stroke of "compassion" which begs the question posed by Geo:
Maybe you missed this question Ricky? Why are Syrian refugees now ENTITLED to the West finding homes for them?
Do tell.
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- rickyp
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16 Nov 2015, 11:16 am
sass
With all due respect Ricky, this is waffle. You're not just saying that Europe has a responsibility to 'act', you're saying that it has a responsibility to offer an open-ended commitment to accept, house, feed and provide full access to the welfare state anybody claiming to be Syrian.
with all due respect... refugees do not remain wards of the state for very long. In countries where they are able to become part of the work force, most become self sufficient in 6 months. In Germany there is a need for young people. Most of the refugees are young.
These people are not seeking to become permanent welfare recipients. They bring with them a great deal of talent, and its well known that refugee communities develop an inordinate number of entrepreneurs and professionals...
Please educate yourself on what happened to the refugees of World War II. They weren't supported for very long. They settled into new homes and built the Europe that you seem to think is so fragile today it cannot accept another wave of refugees.
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- rickyp
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16 Nov 2015, 11:18 am
dag
The West should find them a place to live? So now the rest of the world is off the hook?
No.
Although countries that contributed to the various western interventions and intercessions perhaps do bear a little more responsibility.
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- Doctor Fate
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16 Nov 2015, 11:19 am
dag hammarsjkold wrote:Maybe you missed this question Ricky? Why are Syrian refugees now ENTITLED to the West finding homes for them?
Do tell.
This is a genuine question. I have no idea why "the West" is responsible for this.
ISIS is Sunni. Why not send Sunni refugees to Saudi Arabia? The Shia to Iran? "Others" can be temporarily housed in Turkey. After this is settled, they can be repatriated.
Some Republicans have recommended "safe zones" enforced by Jordan and Turkey on the ground and the US from the air.
I'm at a loss to understand why the West should take in hundreds of thousands, or millions, of refugees and give them the red carpet treatment.
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- Doctor Fate
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16 Nov 2015, 11:20 am
rickyp wrote:dag
The West should find them a place to live? So now the rest of the world is off the hook?
No.
Although countries that contributed to the various western interventions and intercessions perhaps do bear a little more responsibility.
If Canadians feel that way, take them all.
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- dag hammarsjkold
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16 Nov 2015, 11:24 am
This quote comes from you, not me.
Unless you have a better place for the refugees to settle... the West should find them places to live.
I wrote..
Surely there is some level of economic infrastructure within some of the Arab nations that would allow some modicum of absorption of refugees?
Are there Islamic countries stepping up to the plate to welcome any of the Syrian refugees Ricky? If not, why not?
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- danivon
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16 Nov 2015, 11:29 am
dag hammarsjkold wrote:This quote comes from you, not me.
Unless you have a better place for the refugees to settle... the West should find them places to live.
I wrote..
Surely there is some level of economic infrastructure within some of the Arab nations that would allow some modicum of absorption of refugees?
Are there Islamic countries stepping up to the plate to welcome any of the Syrian refugees Ricky? If not, why not?
There are hundreds of thousands in Lebanon and Jordan. These are both Arab countries.
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- dag hammarsjkold
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16 Nov 2015, 11:34 am
Danivon,
Are they there because they were invited or by default?
And have a look at Fate's responses above. Aren't there others? What about the Saudi's?
I ask because it seems as though Turkey was simply overwhelmed and didn't have much of choice.
Last edited by
dag hammarsjkold on 16 Nov 2015, 11:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- rickyp
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16 Nov 2015, 11:37 am
bbauska
It is the responsibility of the leader of ANY nation to protect it's people
.
Just from terrorism? Or generally? because comparatively US leaders have been pretty good at protecting citizens from terrorist violence. Pretty poor at domestic violence..
From 2004 to 2014, 303 Americans were killed in terrorist attacks worldwide, according to State Department reports. During that same time frame, 320,523 Americans were killed because of gun violence.
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- bbauska
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16 Nov 2015, 11:39 am
rickyp wrote:bbauska
It is the responsibility of the leader of ANY nation to protect it's people
.
Just from terrorism? Or generally? because comparatively US leaders have been pretty good at protecting citizens from terrorist violence. Pretty poor at domestic violence..
From 2004 to 2014, 303 Americans were killed in terrorist attacks worldwide, according to State Department reports. During that same time frame, 320,523 Americans were killed because of gun violence.
Sidestep...
If you want to talk domestic violence, open a new forum.
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- rickyp
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16 Nov 2015, 11:51 am
dag
Are there Islamic countries stepping up to the plate to welcome any of the Syrian refugees Ricky? If not, why not?
Maybe you missed the part earlier where I said ...
There are over 2 million in Turkey. Over a million in Lebanon
650 thousand in Jordan. a quarter million in Iraq. 130,000 in Egypt,
We don't know how many in the KSA. perhaps 250,000 or more.
These are generally poor nations. With stressed resources.
dag
Maybe you missed this question Ricky? Why are Syrian refugees now ENTITLED to the West finding homes for them?
I didn't say they were entitled.
I said it was the morally courageous and correct thing to do to help them. That may mean accepting many of them in resettlement. There may be other ways....
Until their part of the world has peace and stability, there will be refugees.
And I also said that they are not just a drag on society. In short order they become contributing members of society. We know this historically.
You don't see many second generation Vietnamese boat people wallowing on welfare anywhere do you?
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- bbauska
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16 Nov 2015, 11:57 am
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- Sassenach
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16 Nov 2015, 11:59 am
with all due respect... refugees do not remain wards of the state for very long. In countries where they are able to become part of the work force, most become self sufficient in 6 months. In Germany there is a need for young people. Most of the refugees are young.
These people are not seeking to become permanent welfare recipients. They bring with them a great deal of talent, and its well known that refugee communities develop an inordinate number of entrepreneurs and professionals...
Please educate yourself on what happened to the refugees of World War II. They weren't supported for very long. They settled into new homes and built the Europe that you seem to think is so fragile today it cannot accept another wave of refugees.
You haven't addressed a single one of the points I raised or the questions I asked. It's almost like the material reality of what's happening on the ground is completely irrelevant to you. Weird.
The one who needs to educate himself here is you. Educate yourself as to the unemployment rates for recent migrants into Continental Europe. Educate yourself as to the proportion of these migrants who are actually fleeing Syria (you could start by looking at the figures I quoted you half an hour ago). Educate yourself as to the alarming rise in far right parties right across Europe, or the opinions of indigenous European populations on this issue as expressed repeatedly in both opinion polling and election results.
The refugees after WWII were Germans moving to Germany. They spoke the language fluently, were part of the same culture and were not moving into a modern welfare state. It's a ridiculous comparison.
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- rickyp
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16 Nov 2015, 12:00 pm
fate
If Canadians feel that way, take them all.
Trudeau made a campaign promise to have 25,000 of them into Canada by the end of this year. He won the election handily.
Bringing them here in winter may not be optimum...
This is a genuine question. I have no idea why "the West" is responsible for this
We bear a responsibility to our fellow man...
Period.
If you were a refugee would you not want someone to offer refuge, aid and if necessary a new place to make a life?
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- danivon
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16 Nov 2015, 12:03 pm
dag hammarsjkold wrote:Danivon,
Are they there because they were invited or by default?
Well, they are neighbours. Many also fled to Iraq but I understand not many got into the last neighbour of Syria - Israel.
And have a look at Fate's responses above. Aren't there others? What about the Saudi's?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrians_in_Saudi_Arabia Before the civil war there were about 100,000 Syrians in the Kingdom. Now there are about 500,000. They are not called "refugees" but "Arab brothers and sisters in distress". I suspect many are people who were working in Saudi and their family members who could make it out there. And Hajjis who stayed on.
Egypt, the UAE and Kuwait each have over 100,000 Syrians
I ask because it seems as though Turkey was simply overwhelmed and didn't have much of choice.
It is right next door (has the longest land border with Syria and is near to many cities, particularly some of the key rebel cities of Aleppo and Idlib)
