Danivon:

particularly aircon in badly designed housing in hot areas

which covers the vast majority of the US in the summer!

Being in the UK, I'm not sure what a 'summer' is. The sun is out, but we are assured that this is only temporary and normal rainy weather will soon resume.



One way to look at it is to compare the costs of something to a week's worth of grocery shopping for a household.

ray

. According to the census bureau, in 1992 20% of American families below the poverty line had a dishwasher; 50% had air conditioning; 60% owned a microwave. In 2005, the figures were 37%, 79%, and 91% respectively

That doesn't vary much between first world nations. ... And its mostly due to the marvel called industrial scale. Most household products are far more expensive when first introduced and as manufacturers find ways to make production more efficiently they start to compete on price.
Japan has the same ownership of microwaves, as does the UK.... And some of the difference in ownership might well be cultural. (A frenchman cooking with a microwave???)

http://www.ers.usda.gov/media/612721/ho ... nities.xls

Example of industrial scale? HD televisions were $10,000 when they first came out. Not many people had them. You can get a 42 inch set for $500 at Best Buy now. Everyone has them.


Comparing household ownership of amenities as a gauge as to the effect on standard of living and the effect of the recession seems limited. Major differences in the way a familiy lives aren't really measured by whether or not you have a microwave.....especially since the disposable income required to buy a microwave with todays prices is pretty low. Major changes to measure a difference might be: ability to afford sending a child to college, ability to afford comprehensive health insurance, incidence of foreign vacation travel, age of personal motor vehicle, ownership of motor vehicle ..
The first two have a major impact on the sense of security and the ability to secure a childs future. The others are indications of the number of people who have disposable income enough to spend money on a luxury (travel) or who delay a major purchase...(car age)

Ricky, thanks for the free education. If I read all of your posts, perhaps you can send me a diploma?

Ray Jay wrote:Ricky, thanks for the free education. If I read all of your posts, perhaps you can send me a diploma?

As we used to say, "Shots fired!"

Ray Jay wrote:Ricky, thanks for the free education. If I read all of your posts, perhaps you can send me a diploma?

hmm, I though that was DF for a minute, before I saw his reply below.

You presumably put your stats up for a reason, so why the snark when someone offers comparisons or their own theory as to the import?

Yeah, I'm sorry. It was a flippant tired remark.

The stats are for people who are below the poverty line ... some of our poorest families live in the south in states such as Alabama and Mississippi ... I'd say that air conditioning is very important for general well being and health for these citizens. Perhaps Ricky cannot grasp that from Canada.

danivon wrote:

Ray Jay wrote:Ricky, thanks for the free education. If I read all of your posts, perhaps you can send me a diploma?

hmm, I though that was DF for a minute, before I saw his reply below.

You presumably put your stats up for a reason, so why the snark when someone offers comparisons or their own theory as to the import?

There is an interesting point here: aren't the poor in the US considerably better off than they have ever been? If we went back even fifty years, while poverty rates have not changed all that much (in spite of trillions in anti-poverty spending), don't poor Americans live better lives than the poor ever have in human history?

ray

The stats are for people who are below the poverty line ... some of our poorest families live in the south in states such as Alabama and Mississippi ... I'd say that air conditioning is very important for general well being and health for these citizens. Perhaps Ricky cannot grasp that from Canada

.

Heat waves are becoming increasingly prevalent as the global climate changes. The 1980 United States heat wave and drought killed 10,000 people. In 1988 a similar heat wave and drought killed 17,000 American citizens.[
http://www1.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/tech ... 003-01.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_Unite ... _heat_wave

First; we have pretty much the same kind of weather in Toronto as Chicago gets... The last three to four weeks have been between 26 and 30.
Second, I'm familiar with the devastating effects of hot weather on the poor in the past in the US.. (see above)
And yet, according to your data, 21% of the poor, still don't have air conditioning...
So when Fate says:

aren't the poor in the US considerably better off than they have ever been?

I'd say the answer is; not the one's without air conditioning..

Apples and Oranges.

Compare those without AC to those 50 years ago w/o AC. Have the poor gotten better? I would say yes. But then I would base that upon conjecture.

rickyp wrote:And yet, according to your data, 21% of the poor, still don't have air conditioning...
So when Fate says:

aren't the poor in the US considerably better off than they have ever been?

I'd say the answer is; not the one's without air conditioning..

Agree with Bbauska regarding the issue you don't cover: what were the percentages of poor without A/C in the past?

What I do know is that window units are frequently $100 and under. I thought you liked "economy of scale" and all that?

fate

Agree with Bbauska regarding the issue you don't cover: what were the percentages of poor without A/C in the past?

previously
ray said

. According to the census bureau, in 1992 20% of American families below the poverty line had a dishwasher; 50% had air conditioning; 60% owned a microwave. In 2005, the figures were 37%, 79%, and 91% respectively

fate

What I do know is that window units are frequently $100 and under. I thought you liked "economy of scale" and all that?

The price is an example of "economy of scale". Lack of ownership by 21% poor people despite the heat? Abject poverty?

maybe they live in Alaska or Maine ... maybe they don't care for a/c ... maybe they are like my sister and don't care for microwaves

rickyp wrote:The price is an example of "economy of scale". Lack of ownership by 21% poor people despite the heat? Abject poverty?

I'll make you a deal. Show me these 21% don't have cable TV, cell phones (plural if there's more than one "of age" person in the house), video games, or a DVD player and I'm on your side. Any of those items can be lived without to some degree. A/C in the midst of a heat wave? Not so much.

Sometimes people choose differently than we would.

As a semi-related aside, I cannot believe the number of homes without central A/C in MA! Our home is relatively new and does not have it--a problem we will rectify in the near future.

Totally on topic: I've heard many MA folks say, "There's only a week or two a year you need it."

Really?

Again, it's a choice.

http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-500202_162-20080628.html

When it gets as hot as it has the last few weeks, the people who don't care for AC are dieing..and there are reports of 60 deaths so far in the press, . And Since its 29 to 32 Celcius in Bangor for the next 5 days, and I doubt Alaska accounts for 21% of the poor ...
I'll go with abject poverty. The story i link supports that notion.