Sassenach wrote:

I was making the point that Israel was reacting to what was happening in/from Gaza when it attacked Gaza. RJ was suggesting that an event in West Bank was significant. My response is if that was really the case, then they should have done something in the West Bank.

That's exactly what they did. The Gaza incursions started because Hamas chose to escalate things by launching attacks from Gaza in response to Israel targeting Hamas members in the West Bank.

But you know this of course, which makes your remarks puzzling to say the least.

The thing is whether Hamas admit or not that the killers were their members is pretty insignificant. We already knew that the main suspects were members.

But it was not as simple as a chain of events. On the third day after the kidnapping, Israeli Ministers were talking about resuming the policy of 'targeted killings' of Hamas leaders and of operations in Gaza. Rockets were not fired from Gaza at an increased rate until a couple of weeks later.

More Palestinians died as a result of the operation in the West Bank than the three boys murdered - even if you ignore the deaths of three Arab boys in an apparent revenge attack. Even while evidence was still being gathered and looked at, the Israeli government had already decided who was to blame.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_kidna ... punishment

On Day 7, The Palestinian Authority declared that the Israeli modus operandi, of clamping down on towns with closures and continual arrest of Hamas members, constituted collective punishment.[195][196] Amnesty International issued a statement on 19 June calling both for the release of the Israeli youths, their humane treatment while being held, and for Israel to lift several measures it defined as collective punishment in violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention as well as Customary international humanitarian law.[63]

According to The Economist, "The Israeli security forces closed off the area around Hebron. Some 23,000 local Palestinians were barred from travelling to their jobs in Israel. A series of charitable organisations that used to be run by Hamas were closed down and a dairy, which employs hundreds of Palestinians, was demolished. Hebronites were prevented from travelling abroad."[197]

freeman

The central issue is simple: did Israel (forgetting about everything else) have cause to go into Gaza once Hamas escalated the firing of missiles? I think the answer is yes. We can speculate about the subjective intent of Israel's leaders, but what difference does it make if objectively Israel had cause to go into Gaza? In search and seizure law, they do not look to see the subjective intent of an officer in making a traffic stop, instead they look at whether the officer had objective facts that justified the stop (whether he was stopping the vehicle as a pretextual search for drugs or not, if registration is expired he has cause to stop the vehicle). Same principle here.

Israel has every right to try and eeradicate the missiles.
The problem is that the tactics they use have failed to achieve the end goals and contribute to continued violence.
How? Hamas cannot engage the IDF anywhere except in urban settings where ambush can be achieved. Part of the reason that Hamas rockets is to draw the IDF into these areas where they can engage the IDF with some chance of inflicting serious casualties. (65 so far?)
When civilians, especially children, are the victims of the violence that the IDF brings to bear against the rocketing threats, it simply creates an embittered populace who are never going to be candidates for reconciliation with Israelis. It plays into the Hamas propoganda of Israel as a people who are murderers od Palestinians... Monsters. After all what is worse than someone who kill innocent children?
I go back to the aaology of police forces encountering terrrorists holding hostages. They don't shoot the hostages in ordeer to get the terrorists. They wait for another opportunity.
The other reason that Israel's tactics are a poor choice...they've constantly failed. This isn't the first time that the tactics have been tried. This is the fourth (?) time that this kind of conflict over rocketing and tunnels has occurred. The tactics haven't achieved their aims, except for short periods. They are not a solution. Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results...
If the tactics aren't designed to deliver a solution, but rather simple vengance, then I guess they are fine.

Danivon:

More Palestinians died as a result of the operation in the West Bank than the three boys murdered - even if you ignore the deaths of three Arab boys in an apparent revenge attack.

So what; more Japanese died in WWII than Americans. More Germans died in WWII than American and Brits combined.

Danivon:

Even while evidence was still being gathered and looked at, the Israeli government had already decided who was to blame.

You don't know that. The Israelis did not share all their evidence with you or anyone else. Clearly they didn't want to compromise their sources, both technological and human. You can see in Gaza what happens when someone is thought to have worked with the Israelis (or perhaps the PA). They are publicly executed without a trial.

Ricky:

The other reason that Israel's tactics are a poor choice...they've constantly failed. This isn't the first time that the tactics have been tried. This is the fourth (?) time that this kind of conflict over rocketing and tunnels has occurred. The tactics haven't achieved their aims, except for short periods. They are not a solution. Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Pulling back from the detail snippets and sniping, and looking at the big picture, I do agree somewhat with your position. The Israelis are not coming up with a permanent solution to this conflict. In the West Bank in particular they are caught in their own political deadlock. There are those who want to settle the West Bank and there are those who want to retain a complete democracy, have peace, and withdraw to a fair border. The Israelis are unable to compromise these two positions because they don't have confidence in the other side as a peace partner. Also Palestinian and Arab actions have helped the Israeli hawks and continue to do so.

I also agree with Ricky and Danivon that the Israelis should have a softer approach in the West Bank. Frankly, I still don't think it would do any long term good because fundamentally the problem is that too many Palestinians want it all and will fight until they get it or die trying. Nevertheless, I do believe that a softer approach would sway some Palestinians and westerners who take sides in this conflict. It is not healthy for Israel to be loathed by so many Europeans and some North Americans too, or anyone else in the world. So, in general a softer approach would be better.

But I think Ricky, Danivon, and other are mistaken to believe that somehow if the Israelis took these steps there would be peace in the Middle East. There are several reasons why I believe this:

1. In the past when the Arabs and Palestinians have been offered a reasonable deal, they have rejected it.
2. Their culture is a violent one and has not shown itself yet to accept democratic institutions from consistent elections to women rights, to free press, to an independent judiciary, or to tolerance of minorities of any kind. Culturally speaking there are too many similarities among Hamas, ISIS, al Qaeda, etc.
3. I read what they write. Both Hamas and the PA talk about reclaiming all of Palestine. The moderate PA talks about getting rid of the Zionist entity; the extremist Hamas talks about killing all Jews.
4. They openly teach their children to hate Israelis and Jews. It is embedded in their culture.
5. The Israelis withdrew from Gaza without a noticeable effect towards peace in any way.
6. The Nakba is about 1948 and not about 1967.
7. The crisis of Gaza is not really about the blockade. The crisis is about the density and the fact that the Gazans are descendants of refugees from Israel. It is obvious that the blockade would be loosened if the Gazans would stop firing rockets into Israel. They complain about not having enough concrete to build houses, but the reality is that the tunnel network represents a tremendous amount of building materials. It's very impressive from an engineering perspective. Also, there is a tremendous amount of rocketry making its way into Gaza. Clearly the blockade is not that effective.
8. There are too many countries that use the Palestinians as proxies for their own internal reasons. Whether it is Iran or Sudan or Syria or Libya or Qatar or the EU (that one is a joke) there always seem to be some country that needs the Gazans to fire a missile at the Israelis. There are so many different Palestinian terror groups that are jockeying for power that there is always someone who will fire a missile and provoke an Israeli response.

One or two of these reasons would scuttle any peace deal. When you combine them all you can see how intractable the problem is, even if the Israelis behaved like Canadians.

So, whilst I agree with you that the Israelis should have a softer approach, I think Ricky, Danivon, and others are in denial that this would ultimately solve the crisis.

ray

When you combine them all you can see how intractable the problem is, even if the Israelis behaved like Canadians.

If Israelis behaved like Canadians they would have formed a commision 40 years ago to hold public countless hearings and arrive at a report in some indertinate period of time, that if followed would provide a recommended solution, which if passed into law would become binding on all parties.
That commission would probably still be working today, employing hundreds of civvil servants in permanent occupation and grinding interest in the matter into the dust.
Peace through boredom.

ray

One or two of these reasons would scuttle any peace deal.

And they are all used, as excuses by the Israelis for their polcies and tactics.
Policies and tactics that have, admittedly failed at delivering a lasting and genuine solution.
So maybe its time to stop using these easily accessible excuses and take a chance on different strategy that can actually build a modicum of trust, reconciliation and attempts at achieving agreement on mutually acceptable terms.
Although Hamas can disrupt the process, with their rockeing .... that only happens if Israel decides that the rocketing is going to disrupt the process. If they largely ignore the rocketing, and use only careful force and the iron dome against Hamas they would do more to detach Palestinian support from Hamas then by the overwhelming use of force that they now use.
All they do now is harden Palestinian support for hardliners. Killing children and destroying homes has a way of doing that.

Personally I don't think Israel will ever attempt a softer approach, because there is not a genuine willingness on Israells part to compromise on the full aim of a Greater Israel. And the constant conflict is seen as a way to achieve that goal, incrementally over a long period of time.

Ray Jay wrote:Danivon:

More Palestinians died as a result of the operation in the West Bank than the three boys murdered - even if you ignore the deaths of three Arab boys in an apparent revenge attack.

So what; more Japanese died in WWII than Americans. More Germans died in WWII than American and Brits combined.

Whataboutery doesn't make much of an impact. Also note that all of the deaths were of civilians (as in, those who died in the West Bank during Operation Brother's Keeper, and the three murdered boys). That is not comparable to an actual war.

Danivon:

Even while evidence was still being gathered and looked at, the Israeli government had already decided who was to blame.

You don't know that. The Israelis did not share all their evidence with you or anyone else. Clearly they didn't want to compromise their sources, both technological and human. You can see in Gaza what happens when someone is thought to have worked with the Israelis (or perhaps the PA). They are publicly executed without a trial.

Hmm. So that's why they arrested members of Islamic Jihad as well?

danivon wrote:

Ray Jay wrote:Danivon:

More Palestinians died as a result of the operation in the West Bank than the three boys murdered - even if you ignore the deaths of three Arab boys in an apparent revenge attack.

So what; more Japanese died in WWII than Americans. More Germans died in WWII than American and Brits combined.

Whataboutery doesn't make much of an impact. Also note that all of the deaths were of civilians (as in, those who died in the West Bank during Operation Brother's Keeper, and the three murdered boys). That is not comparable to an actual war. .

It's not whataboutery. I'm not saying that the U.S. and Brits acted more or equally immorally during WWII. I'm saying that you are using a false metric when you judge the morality of a conflict based on the number of civilians who die. Many more civilians died in Japan and Germany than in the U.S. and Britain during WWII. That doesn't mean the U.S. and Britain acted immorally.

BTW, you don't have all your facts right, which is unlike you. There was 1 boy murdered in the revenge attack, not 3. Israel completely and vigorously condemned this attack. Second, not all of the deaths were innocent civilians. A young man in Jenin threw a grenade at Israeli soldiers and was killed as a result. (These details won't change anyone's view, but let's get our facts straight.)

rickyp wrote:ray

When you combine them all you can see how intractable the problem is, even if the Israelis behaved like Canadians.

If Israelis behaved like Canadians they would have formed a commision 40 years ago to hold public countless hearings and arrive at a report in some indertinate period of time, that if followed would provide a recommended solution, which if passed into law would become binding on all parties.
That commission would probably still be working today, employing hundreds of civvil servants in permanent occupation and grinding interest in the matter into the dust.
Peace through boredom. .

Very cute -- thanks. In all honesty, if Israelis behaved like Canadians over the last 66 years everybody would say what a shame that all those lovely people were senselessly killed. What a shame. No thanks; been there, done that.

ray

One or two of these reasons would scuttle any peace deal.

And they are all used, as excuses by the Israelis for their polcies and tactics.
Policies and tactics that have, admittedly failed at delivering a lasting and genuine solution.
So maybe its time to stop using these easily accessible excuses and take a chance on different strategy that can actually build a modicum of trust, reconciliation and attempts at achieving agreement on mutually acceptable terms.
Although Hamas can disrupt the process, with their rockeing .... that only happens if Israel decides that the rocketing is going to disrupt the process. If they largely ignore the rocketing, and use only careful force and the iron dome against Hamas they would do more to detach Palestinian support from Hamas then by the overwhelming use of force that they now use.
All they do now is harden Palestinian support for hardliners. Killing children and destroying homes has a way of doing that.

Personally I don't think Israel will ever attempt a softer approach, because there is not a genuine willingness on Israells part to compromise on the full aim of a Greater Israel. And the constant conflict is seen as a way to achieve that goal, incrementally over a long period of time.

There is certainly some truth to what you say. Some Israelis, including the PM, use the situation opportunistically. In politics and poker, everyone plays the hand they are dealt.

It's interesting to me that you don't believe the Israelis when they say that they want peace and you don't believe Hamas when they say they want to kill every last Jew. I think deep down both sides are telling the truth.

ray

It's interesting to me that you don't believe the Israelis when they say that they want peace and you don't believe Hamas when they say they want to kill every last Jew

Please quote me where I've said I don't believe Hamas.....
Otherwise, please correct this... .

ray

if Israelis behaved like Canadians over the last 66 years everybody would say what a shame that all those lovely people were senselessly killed

You obviously know little of Canada's history, national character or zealous participation in Wars.

Israel is not now, nor have they been in for some decades, in an existential conflict. They are, today, the only middle eastern super power. Their enemies are not capable of challenging them militarily, particularly since the exisitence and protection of Israel has been guaranteed by the worlds remaining super power...
This notion of the threatened Israel is dishonest today. Yes there is a threat to Israel of terrorist violence, but that threat is not in any way a threat to the existence of the state or the people as a whole.And the daily threats of violence to Israelis must be balanced by the daily threat of violence against Palestinians... The latter is greater than the former...

ray

It's interesting to me that you don't believe the Israelis when they say that they want peace

Their words are belied by their actions.
If you want a peaceful neighbor you don't spend all effort humiliating them. The occupation of the West Bank and the blockade of Gaza are meant to humble the Palestinians and force them into acquiescence.
If Israel were serious about peace there would be a significant different approach to things like sharing of water resources, development of settlements on occupied land, and an acceptance of third party judgements on issues. There would be more consideration of Palestinians requirements than the arbitrary building of security fence zones, and travel restrictions. There wouldbe an attempt at accomodating Palestinians needs, where demonstrably theere has been little to no accomodation of Palestinians.
If hey were serious about peace, Israel would be more willing to compromise... They aren't. And yet, as the far superior military force they are the group in a position to compromise...

Ricky:

ray

It's interesting to me that you don't believe the Israelis when they say that they want peace and you don't believe Hamas when they say they want to kill every last Jew

Please quote me where I've said I don't believe Hamas.....
Otherwise, please correct this... .

Fair enough. You believe Hamas. No offense intended.

Ricky:

You obviously know little of Canada's history, national character or zealous participation in Wars.

How much is there to know?

Ok, in all seriousness, yes, Canada has been a worthy participant in WWI, WWII, and in many NATO actions since. However, it's never been attacked on all sides by 5 different countries with numerical superiority at the same time whilst it was experiencing an arms embargo and had a width of 9 miles.

In 1948, 1967, and 1973 Israel experienced an existential threat. You are correct that since about 1980 they have been safe.

ray

However, it's never been attacked on all sides by 5 different countries with numerical superiority at the same time whilst it was experiencing an arms embargo and had a width of 9 miles

.

Gaza is only six kilometres wide, but otherwise their current experience is awfully similar to Israel in 49, no? Well, worse in terms of almost a complete lack of resources and over crowded. And been going on for decades...
Would it be fair to say that the existence of Gaza is threatened?
Who am I supposed to feel sympathy for, the past reality of Israel or the present calamity that is Gaza?

Israelis are no longer victims, nor threatened. Their past existential wars do not excuse their current behaviours or intransigence when it is a barrier to an eventual peaceful solution.
If eventual exhaustion does ever drive Israel to try something different that an exhausted Palestinian nation will find offers dignity.

Ricky:

Would it be fair to say that the existence of Gaza is threatened?

No, it would be fair to say their situation sucks. But no one wants to kill every last one of them.

If they are overcrowded, petition your government to settle them in Canada. It would be suicide for the Israelis to take them in.

ray

But no one wants to kill every last one of them

There are plenty of Israelis extremists spreading hate.

Ayelet Shaked of the ultra-nationalist Jewish Home party called for the slaughter of Palestinian mothers who she said give birth to "little snakes." "They have to die and their houses should be demolished so that they cannot bear any more terrorists," Shaked said.
She added, "They are all our enemies and their blood should be on our hands. This also applies to the mothers of the dead terrorists." The remarks are considered as a call for genocide as she declared that all Palestinians are Israel's enemies and must be killed.

http://mondoweiss.net/2014/08/knesset-g ... ainst.html

Shaked made her post the day before the Palestinian teenager Muhammad Abu Khdeir was kidnapped and burned alive by six extremist Israeli Jewish youths.

rickyp wrote:ray

But no one wants to kill every last one of them

There are plenty of Israelis extremists spreading hate.

Ayelet Shaked of the ultra-nationalist Jewish Home party called for the slaughter of Palestinian mothers who she said give birth to "little snakes." "They have to die and their houses should be demolished so that they cannot bear any more terrorists," Shaked said.
She added, "They are all our enemies and their blood should be on our hands. This also applies to the mothers of the dead terrorists." The remarks are considered as a call for genocide as she declared that all Palestinians are Israel's enemies and must be killed.

http://mondoweiss.net/2014/08/knesset-g ... ainst.html

Shaked made her post the day before the Palestinian teenager Muhammad Abu Khdeir was kidnapped and burned alive by six extremist Israeli Jewish youths.

I'm not sure she actually said all that. She denies it and there are questions about the translation. If she did say all that it is despicable. However, you will find hate all around you everywhere you look. At issue is that killing innocent Israelis is the dominant position in Gaza.

But I do stand corrected. My sentence was not literally true; there are Israelis and others who do want to kill all the people of Gaza.

ray

At issue is that killing innocent Israelis is the dominant position in Gaza.

And yet its innocent Gazans who make up most of the butchers bill.
Maybe the second is a cause of the first?

There is no moral high ground to be had in this mess.